3.5 Finger Discount
ARTHUR:
Anaheim calling to the hockey world...
At today's Leafs press conference Brian Burke made specific mention of the way that the salary cap affects trades and the point in a season, or particularly in a player's contract, that a trade becomes ripe. That seems particularly relevant in the Anaheim trade, where the Ducks added an extra 2.5M in annual salary this year by taking Vesa Toskala and Jason Blake from the Leafs in exchange for Giguere. Toskala's contract expires at the end of the season, while Blake's descends from a 4.5M salary perch this year to 3M next year, making him a particularly acceptable long-term player to take in exchange for Giguere, whose salary ascends by 1M next year.
However, lost in the shuffle of the actual deal is the fact that Bob Murray had his choice of TWO bad contracts to absorb from the Maple Leafs: Jason Blake or Jeff Finger. The Maple Leafs defender signed a much maligned four-year 14M deal in July of 2008, and will make 3.5M (salary and cap hit) per year into the 2011-2012 season. Daniel, was Murray right to choose Blake instead of Finger?
DANIEL:
First, I have to say how angry I am that we picked up Jason Blake. As I alluded to in the comments section of the original Rumor Mill post (and as you later interpreted for me), I wanted a defender to shake loose from the Toronto tree. The money they are spending on D right now is ridiculous. Yes, I wanted Beauchemin more than anything, but other members of the corps would have been just as acceptable, maybe even Jeff Finger. Murray should be fired, and not just for blowing this trade but also for choosing to send down Big Sexy over Troy Bodie.
This boils down to need, and the Ducks need help on the blue line. Wisniewski is starting to play better (offensively), but Whitney continues to struggle. Brookbank is a very solid, but a very ordinary defender, and Boynton, well Boynton might as well pack his bags before the summer. Eminger has become a very good stay at home guy with a nasty streak, and that's hard not to like. I just don't see how we couldn't benefit from a little extra competition, and a little help. I don't know a lot about Finger's game, but even a guy who is seriously overpaid at 3.5M could have brought some solid options to the club. Not to mention that he seems to be struggling equal to the team in Toronto, and not in spite of it. Finger did have a very solid season his last year in Colorado with 19 points and a +12. His 23 points and -7 his first year in Toronto was less impressive. Still, I can't help but feel we are too crowded up front.
Look at the forwards right now. With Sexton going down to the Moose, we might see Bobby Ryan return to the top line and a second line of Blake-Koivu-Selanne. That will push Lupul and Beleskey (or Blake and Beleskey) to the Bottom 6. Although, if things get really crazy the Ducks could be featuring a third line with Lupul and Blake on the wings. Is that awesome? Or just a waste of 8.25 million dollars? We have too many expensive forwards, and I think that the blueline option of Finger would have at least given us a little more flexibility on the back end. A change of scenery can be good for players; I wish there was a defenseman finding that kind of change in Anaheim right now.
ARTHUR:
Sleek asked me in the comments of the last post why I would acquire Jeff Finger at 3.5M but wouldn't pay Wisniewski 3M. The simple answer is that Anaheim didn't sign Jeff Finger, and it can't value its players based on the blunders of other GM's. Compared to Joffrey Lupul's contract, Bobby Ryan might deserve 6M, but compared to Getzlaf's and Perry's, he's a 4.5M guy. Acquiring players that don't fit in with our economy shouldn't force us to increase the salary of our own players.
And make no mistake, we were going to acquire a player that didn't fit in with our economy in this trade. Both of these contracts are poisonous. Blake hasn't returned to the player he was when he signed this contract, and as was mentioned in Mark Whicker's article (linked above and here), he disclosed bouts of depression and self-pity along with his cancer when he joined up with Toronto. Finger, meanwhile, is a massively overpaid stay-at-home defenseman and has missed time both to minor injuries and the scratch list. Neither player is a guaranteed improvement over the other, and frankly, neither player is a guaranteed improvement over buying out Giguere and storing the money in the debit column for the next two years.
But I, too, think this boils down to need. Blake's got heart and some scoring potential, but if we take him at his current production, he's only outscoring Sexton by 8 points in twice as many games. Did we need another forward when we have cost-effective forwards in place?
It's the D-corps that needs direction, that needs stabilization. And while I doubt that Finger can provide that all by himself, I know that the Eminger/Boynton experiment has failed. Murray isn't getting a discount on 4M defensemen there. You can throw the GP stat out the window, because we're paying them ~1.5M, and they look like ~1.5M players. I also know that Whitney is underperforming his contract, which graduates 500K for each of its three remaining years. We can get more out of our forwards, but we're getting what we paid for, and sometimes less, out of our defensemen.
I wasn't expecting a serviceable player in this deal, not in exchange for Jiggy's contract. But if we're just getting un-trade-able dead weight, if we're just getting something better than putting Giguere on the bench, something better than a pack of Marlboro Lights with a 4M cap hit, it would be good to acquire something we actually need.
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I guess we could look at the short-sighted “what do the Ducks need in Florida tomorrow” perspective, but I don’t think the Ducks need a $3.5M Jeff Finger on their blueline for the next two seasons — that’d be one tough contract to live with or move. And I’m not even sure I’d dress Jeff Finger tomorrow.
Shrug — I don’t know why we’d fire Barstool Bob for not getting something useful for a virtually untradeable asset. I’d have picked J-Blake in that decision, too. (A) He’s cheaper and (B) you can shelter a bad forward much easier than you can hide a bad d-man.
Plus now we’re virtually assured to spend money on the blueline next summer — all our forward spots are filled up.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
This doesn’t even make my top 5 reasons to fire Murray, so I won’t speak to daniel’s opinion there.
On Blake being cheaper, he is, but only by 500k and he’s 500k more on cap hit, which might come into play depending on who we try to trade with. I disagree that the net effect of having Finger on the books is worse than having Blake. If we can’t move him, Blake turns into a buyout, or knowing Murray, a reason to trade rookies. Finger just prevents us from bringing on more Boyntons and Emingers, which I think Is a good thing. And I’d be happy to have more money to spend on defense, too, if a lot of great premiere defensemen were hitting the market. As it stands, we’d probably have to trade to add a blueliner and I don’t know that Blake is better than Finger in a trade situation (not that either is good).
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 31, 2010 10:43 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Well, we should watch these players play before talking buyout. In fact, I don’t think mid-spending teams like Anaheim should be talking about buyouts at all — that seemingly should only be talked about by cap-ceiling teams.
I think there may be good players on the market soon — we’ll have to see what that next salary cap number is and how many teams feel really really stressed about it.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Well, I don’t think this offseason is going to be terribly different than the last, an if the front office is also the same, we’re looking at another year where Murray thinks a Boynton can fill in for a Beauchemin. I mean, which defenseman got squeezed out of camp this year, Steve McCarthy? We’re dealing with a guy who would rather try out his first round pick from Chicago in 99 than a real NHLer. I don’t mean to dismiss Blake before we see him play in california again, but forwards we have, we’ve found and we can get. We’ve seen Murray try to build a defense and it’s ugly. So I think worst case scenario, I’d rather be stuck with Finger. It’s not short term thinking based on what Murray did last offseason. And I agree with you on buyouts, but I was talking worst case scenario on either player
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 31, 2010 11:32 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t need a top 5 reasons to fire Murray. Murray is out of reasons. He has crossed into the territory of plain fired. He just needs to be fired. No more chances, justifications or rationales. Just fire him. Fire him and don’t even give him a pay check. I will not refer to former reasons; I will simply stack new reasons on top of forgotten old ones. Such is my anger and hate of Bob Murray.
It’s odd timing — I think I’d classify this as one of Murray’s top five days as Anaheim’s GM. Unloading Giguere without unloading a pick to essentially the only GM on earth who’d take him? I’d high-five Barstool Bob if he were in the room.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Yeah I’m with you here, we traded away a player we weren’t using, and when we did use him we lost often. If these guys are bad, I’m still not sure we got screwed here.
Ohh! You guys!
Just to be clear
the point of this post is not that we got screwed or that this was a bad trade. This was a good trade, a great dump. This was a great homeboy favor by Burke, on par with Doug Wilson hooking up two Sharks prospects to replace the ones Murray threw out the window in O’Dell and Tangradi.
The post is about the one thing Murray had to do: choose one of the two AWFUL contracts. Neither is the RIGHT choice, both will SCREW you, but I guess Rudy Kelly might put it as the difference between rape and gang rape. Daniel and I settled on Murray choosing gang rape in this instance.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions
I kind of agree with Cunitsoldiet below
This isn’t really murray’s work. I think it’s a god salary dump but to say it’s a deal mirth made is stretching it. Sleek, in your cartoon of the blindfolded duck paying giguere, burke’s the duck, and the fact that he cleaned up his mess doesn’t really speak to murray’s abilities as a dealmaker. In fact, it barely pays Murray back for juking him out of beauchemin. Murray’s best day was talking his old bluelie partner out of some great Tim Burke picks in San Jose. If every trade we made was with doug wilson, Murray would be the greatest gm of all time
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 31, 2010 11:38 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Doesn’t quite matter who inked the deal at this point — I can’t think of another GM that would have taken Jiggy without one of our prized assets (pick, B-Ry, Perry, whatever) going with him. As of yesterday, I was pretty sure that we were stuck on the very-very-expensive tandem route.
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Well, it matters if you’re putting it as a win in the murray column. If he was really in the driver’s seat, he’d have gotten Hagman, whobhe inquired about months ago. But Burke basically offered to trade him one of fletcher’s mistakes for one of burke’s. Murray’s only involvement was probably choosing between Blake and Finger, and whether he picked the wrong one or not, successfully choosing the marginally lesser of two evils isn’t really job securing work.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 12:01 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
but maybe my hi-five threshold his too high. I haven’t hi-fived anyone since 1993.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 1:09 AM PST up reply actions
it’s a great trade by bob murray
he saved 4 million dollars next year, and got Hiler signed, without adding a cent to next years budget.
after ryan gets signed(5 mil cap hit, backloaded) we’re still going to have atleast 10 mil to spend. with Bonino possibly ready to step in at center plus sexton and deschamps…..
I think we’ll be big players for hamhuis and michalek, if scotty returns hes not getting 6 mill again
our d next year
niedermayer-wiz
Whitney-Hamhuis/Michalek
Sbisa-Brookbank
Eminger
we’re going to get a dman we have 2 firsts and a ton of forwards……
I think it’s extremely optimistic to believe Murray will be in the Hamuis/Michalek business. Michalek is very much in the mold of Greg Zanon, who went for 3 years at 1.93M per year last offseason, and Murray didn’t get involved in the bidding. Hamhuis wouldn’t be much more expensive, but he would definitely draw bidders.
I mean, Chicago fans always talk about what signing Cambell does for their clout in the trade market. There’s something to be said for the fact that Murray’s deals with defensemen have gone as follows: allotting less than 3M for Beauchemin and not making an offer, filing for arbitration on Wisniewski before giving him a 2.75M one year contract and talking Boynton down to 1 yr at 50% of his pay. Those aren’t all bad moves and signing Cambell wasn’t a right move at all, but nothing Murray’s done with defensemen screams, ‘You want to play for ME." And I think Steve McCarthy getting a camp invite screams about his ability to scout what’s out there.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 12:49 AM PST up reply actions
woops
I meant their clout in the free agent market
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 7:56 AM PST up reply actions
Plus, Go Ducks,
I’d caution against positing that Bonino and Deschamps are NHL ready next year, or even the D-man we pick in the draft being ready. Bonino took his first major injury this year and the Ducks have always slow-developed with the exception of some of McNab’s NCAA picks. Deschamps is having a monster season and if we tank this year, we’ll have a Top 5 pick, but it’s rare for this team not to put a full AHL year on a player, especially non-free agents.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 1:02 AM PST up reply actions
If you talk about cap saving. It’s only 2 million. Not exactly a ton of money. I know we talk about this freeing up bobby Ryan’s money, but if you look at this trade in terms of what we’re keeping on the payroll next year, it’s essentially Jason Blake for Jiggy. That’s a cap savings of 2 million. I don’t think Bobby can be had for 2 million, or 2.5. But, I think that we have better organizational depth up front than we do on the blue line.
I think there’s always a chance a team can be interested in D, but a forward who has trouble scoring is a different story. Also, when we talk about Scotty taking a pay cut, I’m not sure I see that being a big cut. He’s not the same Scott Niedermayer, but he’s still Scotty. At best I see him dropping to 5 million. I don’t know. I can’t believe we couldn’t bet Beauchy back. That messed up my day.
yeah, but they're talking payroll savings
and that’s completely valid on a team with a budget. We’re not a cap team. Cap only means something in our ability to trade a player based on cap hit.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
Well it looks like Burke dictated this trade all the way and Murray was his puppet. We should of went for someone in the minors at least then. But as for the ducks we have some potential for D in the minors. And big ? is the experience of those D-men. But we just picked up Toronto’s dead weight. If we were going to waste that money on a forward like that we should of tried for beauch and got some decent D
Justine Pogge should get a shot. I trust him rather than the worst goalie in the NHL, Toskala.
"Just another Halo victory" - Rory Markas
I think a big factor
that nobody has dicussed yet is how this team was designed to win. With our forward depth and guys like Whitney and Wiz (while losing Pronger and Beauch), it’s obvious that Murray wanted this to be an offense-first team. That’s been sort of hampered by injuries to two key forwards, which has really hurt our offensive production.
I think you take Blake because it fits the mold of the team and its overall design. I think Murray and Carlyle said from the beginning of the year that they’d like to have three scoring lines. Whether or not you agree with it, its the plan the team came up with and they’re sticking to it. Given our lack of offensive production the past week and a half, I think this is an attempt to get the team back into scoring mode.
by PhantomPretender on Feb 1, 2010 9:11 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, but that offense first approach isn’t working. It’s just not our style of hockey and I think Murray is refusing to understand that. I kind of talked about this in our Four Score post. We get better results when we play a better defensive game, even though we’ve been built for offense. I think this is another one of those instances where we’re so proud of Murray doing something, like the Pahlsson, Whitney, and Christensen deals, that we don’t see the long term of what he’s done. I just hope he moves Blake at the deadline so we can get our rookies back in the line up.
I have a hard time
condeming the offense-first approach. We truly haven’t had many opportunities tol roll the three scoring lines everyone thought we would.
But that’s besides the point. Murray has devoted the team to a certain style and I think he’s going all-in with it. I think trying to remake the team as a D first team mid-season is impossible. We just don’t have the pieces in place to support it.
Now I give you and Arthur credit because you were skeptical of this approach from the beinning of the season. But I think its somewhat unrealistic to think the team can retool and refocus on defense mid-season.
by PhantomPretender on Feb 1, 2010 9:25 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
When the season first started we couldn’t really roll 3 scoring lines. That’s a failing of the GM. I think we have a crazy situation and someone’s head is going to have to roll. Murray wants to go offense first and Carlyle doesn’t. I still think that conflict has created a lot of our problems. Murray goes out and gets guys who think too much offense or cheap, unintelligent defenders, and then tells Carlyle to just make it work rather than getting Carlyle the type of players he can use. I think the GM needs to make good deals that help the coach. Trying to retool like this on the fly has had disastrous results for us as an organization.
Maybe it's because I'm a baseball fan
before anything else, but I always have a hard time jumping all over GMs. I think that armchair GM’ing is so easy and popular, but I also think it’s flawed since we’re privvy to perhaps 1 percent of all negotiations.
by PhantomPretender on Feb 1, 2010 9:38 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
That’s fair, and normally I agree. But Murray has just been awful in my opinion. I mean, He practically gave away some prospects, got lucky to get a couple back, and he seems to cave in every negotiation. I just don’t feel confident with him leading the team. At least with Burke, I knew he had a plan and a vision and he and Randy shared it and the team moved in one direction. Murray seems to have lost that.
I think it depends on the GM. Murray wasn’t ousted because a couple deals when bad in Chicago. His last blockbuster deal was a major failure and he turned around and signed a decrepit Wendel Clark and had to get rid of him in a matter of months. The guy was only a GM because he went straight from the locker room to the front office, and firing him was mostly a merciful act. There’s no reason not to question him. And the fact that he brought the same Games Played first, Steve McCarthy mentality to Anaheim means he hasn’t changed much. So if he was good enough to fire in a town he gave his entire career to, then he can be dumb enough to fire here, too.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
heh heh
deals ‘went bad’ Sorry bout all the typos. tryign to work and put up the gameday post
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with the offense first approach
The forwards haven’t worked out, sometimes because of chemistry i.e. Lupul couldn’t gel on the second line, Ryan only started to gel on teh second line after Sexton showed up. Guys like Artyukhin had their own set of problems. But I dont’ think the brute force of just adding more forwards is the answer, especially a flagging forward. It clearly pushed a capable rookie out of the way, one who was scoring at a faster clip than Sexton.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
the strict mold of the team
was to add strong forwards and bad defensemen (or at least underperforming defensemen that could be underpaid). Blake’s not really a strong forward right now, and Finger is a bad defensemen who is overpaid. So the closest to the strict vision of the team is actually Finger, sadly.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Feb 1, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
Although we need defense more than offense, I think Murray made the right choice. (I never thought I would ever say that.) As plain and simple, Finger sucks. And we have enough sucko defensive crowding our blue line as it is. Its far easier to hide potentially washed-up forward than it is to hide a crappy blue liner. (Ex: See Brendan Morrison)

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