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From The Editor: On Paul Kariya

ARTHUR:
About a year ago, when this blog was still in its infancy on Blogger, I emailed Earl Sleek about the dearth of Ducks blogs on Battle of California. He looked us over and declared us Sleek-endorsed; he was particularly taken by a quote from Daniel:

Of personal interest is Arthur and Daniel's discussion about Bobby Ryan assuming Paul Kariya's #9 -- money quote for me is this:

"I think Anaheim fans need to suck it up and show Paul the respect he deserves. Anaheim fans are being pouty stereotypical Orange County elitists who think that everyone on their team should do exactly what they want regardless of how disrespectful it is to the person involved, in this case Kariya. I suppose the more I think about it the less I like Bobby wearing 9. It's Kariya's number, and it should stay that way. It should be an unspoken rule."

Hell yes.

Since our move to SBN, also a factor of a Sleek endorsement, we've been curiously mum on the subject of Paul Kariya. My bio is forthcoming about the fact that Kariya (along with Jack Ferreira and later David McNab) lured me to the Ducks at their inception. And Daniel's feelings above are in our archives. Still, I wonder if we've said enough on the subject. Aren't I somehow letting Sleek down? He sold us as a blog that would stand up to the boos, and we haven't.

With Eklund (read untrue) rumors firing up a Kariya discussion, I've decided to dominate the front page today by talking about my experience of Paul Kariya and why I feel no need to boo him. It's an editorial, but it's not meant to persuade you to love Kariya, nor should it be viewed as Kariya apologist propaganda. I'm simply persuading you to consider not booing every former player who doesn't have the nicest things to say about his stay in Anaheim.

We are not management. And management has not always been kind to players. We are not the coaching staff, and the coaching staff has not always understood the players. And we are not every Anaheim fan, so we can't really speak to the players' experience of us as a whole. It's possible for a player to get a raw deal in Anaheim; more than a few have. I say we reserve our boos for the truly deserving, because honestly, unleashing a vitriolic boo on Ryan Whitney just makes us look like a bunch of morons.

So why don't I boo Paul Kariya?

Star-divide

Well, let me first say that I don't care that he's introverted. If he slighted you because he couldn't be personable with you, you're more than entitled to boo him for that experience. Jen does. Early in his career, people tried to make excuses for his aversion to fans, his insistence on using secret exits and shying away from cameras. They tried to say he would grow out of it. But I knew he never would, because I'm introverted.

It's rare that I hear that people are mad about the person that Kariya is, though. Most often, I hear people are bitter about something he said in a newspaper, holdouts, or his departure via free agency in 2003. Many Ducks fans focus on the pay cut in 2003, a factor of the biased and ignorant way in which the information was reported. For the record, under the 94 Collective Bargaining Agreement, Kariya was forced to remain a Restricted Free Agent until age 31, perhaps longer under the next CBA. By playing one year at a salary below the league minimum, he was guaranteed Unrestricted Free Agency, letting him get into the market a year early, but also keeping him free of potential new restrictions under the 2004 CBA. Oh, and what about Bryan Murray's claims that he told Kariya he planned to reunite him with Selanne? I find it as fallacious as it is salacious. I'm not going to boo a man for making a business decision to get out of an unfair CBA or because a GM trying to keep his job implies I should.

So what about what he said in the papers? That he wanted to retire a Duck, win the Cup as a Duck? They could be sports platitudes. But if he meant those things at the time, and he very well could have, there were people-- NHL legends --who thought he was stupid to think it was possible. And if the Cup run in 2003 gave him hope, Bryan Murray's decision not to bring back Adam Oates and Steve Thomas must have put some doubt into his mind. Even after Kariya left, Murray spent all of the money in one place: Fedorov. The quote "play for a winner" was painfully honest when it came to Murray's ability to build a team for another run. We did miss the playoffs that year, and it wasn't all for lack of Paul. As to anything else he said in the papers, the biggest reason I don't boo Paul Kariya is because he had a tough time in '97 during and after the holdout. And if he has bad feelings about the old organization, well, he should.

You can say he got his money, but as Conan O'Brien taught us recently, money isn't everything. You certainly don't need to feel sorry for the person, but it's very possible to get a mountain of money and yet nothing you want in terms of your career.

The '94 holdout is an afterthought to me. He wanted Alexander Daigle money; Ducks GM Jack Ferreira was still hoping to run this operation at cost. After Ferreira acquiesced, people were talking about Kariya being woefully underpaid. But it was the '97 holdout where I think we lost him. After Joe Sakic's RFA stunt, a $15 million signing bonus with the Rangers, Ferreira made it clear that all Kariya offers would be matched, even encouraging his fellow GM's to test Disney. The GM's didn't, but Disney didn't test Kariya much either.

The holdout went on for so long, and there were so many stories. Did Michael Eisner put an ultimatum on the table, and claim that Disney was too strapped to pay the secretarial staff at the Pond? Was the dismissal of Ron Wilson and the general direction of the team the issue? Was the players' association coordinating the holdouts? Ultimately, it seemed to be about term, about the fact that ownership already owned Kariya until he was 31, but they came to him with hopes of 7 years offers, and then 5 year offers, while Kariya insisted on a 3 year deal, which at least gave him the chance to negotiate his forced ownership under the new CBA. It seemed that stubbornness, both of Ferreira and Kariya, ruled the day, but Selanne himself intimated that there was something more to the negotiations than term and money, something that made it a "nightmare at times."

I sit on the sidelines, and I trash players and GM's. I call Bob Murray out for not making Beauchemin an offer. And really, in the grand scheme of things, I have no right to do that. The Ducks are not my career; hockey's not my career. It's a ticket I buy, and the emotion I invest, I can freely divest. But if a player gives an organization nine years of his career (and arguably his best) under contentious player/management relations, if he endures negotiations that go so poorly that he actually considers giving up and playing in the less lucrative leagues, if he finds himself concussed and wondering if his team ever intends on protecting him again, if he endures Pierre Page and years of comic mismanagement and lowballing, and if he listens to another GM talk about the money-saving avenues to the Stanley Cup, then hasn't he earned the right to say what he wants? Wouldn't he know better than you or I?

In many professional leagues, it's classy not to potshot your former organization. But with the owners keeping their players in the dark ages for so long, the NHL isn't one of those leagues.

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I for one never wish ill will against a former player who played for our Ducks. I will root against them when they are in town but after that its back to wishing nothing but the best. I’ll be there next year to welcome Jiggy back to Anaheim and stand up and clap when his name is called but once the puck drops I want our boys to find the back of the net as much as they can. Paul said some harsh words in the following days after he left the Ducks and I would assume that that was directed towards the front office and not the fans. Still fans should stand up for their front office and current players when it calls for it. I wish that Paul would have played all these years but things happened the way they did. You can’t change the past.

by Newport Rebel on May 11, 2010 10:57 PM PDT reply actions  

I think there’s a difference between what you’re saying and what the article is arguing. There is animosity towards Kariya. After we won the Cup Arthur and I went to the rally and we talked about how awesome it would be if Kariya came back. We’d be able to protect him, old management hate would be gone, and we’d be able to welcome him back as the prodigal son that he is. But there were people who said they’d cancel their season tickets if Kariya came back. That’s real hate. I hate the Red Wings, but if we sign Kronwall, I’m not going to stop going to the games.

My point is that why can’t we applaud Kariya and then hope he doesn’t score. Why do we have to boo a guy who gave 9 great years.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

True we did leave Paul hanging when he played here. Man he took some bad shots and we did nothing about it. I’ve never seen though the levels of Paul hate that you mention though. Whenever I talk to people about ole # 9 people are kind of indifference or remorseful. Just because I didn’t want him to come back to Anaheim doesn’t mean I hate him or boo him. I am thankful for his years here and honestly without him I might not be a Ducks fan today but the team and fan base have moved on from the Kariya situation for the most part. I’m sure there is the Jens out there but they are few and far between.

by Newport Rebel on May 12, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, he still gets booed rather fiercely when he comes home. I think all of those people would disagree with you.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m sure there is the Jens out there

Not sure how I feel about my name being used in vain…

Writer for Anaheim Calling
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks

by Jen Neale on May 12, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha. We all love Jen. :-)

Though, on the above, I wanted to ask you, did you ever hold the “play for a winner” thing against Teemu? Not just because he went to Colorado, too, but because he said it first when he was traded to San Jose:

I’m excited to got to a team that really wants to pay the price to be a winner – AP Quote, you can find it clippedhere.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um, no because he was traded. Helllloooo, read my bio! I was pissed when he was traded. I didn’t blame him for talking shit. I did too!

Being traded versus leaving on your own free will are two totally different things.

I get that Paul was treated badly by management, but like everything else Ducks related, it comes back to my feelings. In his case, he left me feeling abandoned. I did not appreciate that ;)

Writer for Anaheim Calling
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks

by Jen Neale on May 12, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

haha. They were both taking the same potshot at management (different management) and ownership (same ownership) though. And they were both right at the time. Plus, in terms of ouch factor, that one hurt because we were paying a few million on Selanne’s Sharks salary. WE were paying the price for that ‘winner.’

And I get that it comes back to your feelings. I just don’t know why everyone has to beat up on the introverted guy, and the happy-go-lucky guy gets away with everything. /frowns and displays sad dimples

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

We can forgive Teemu cause he has better flowing hair.

by Newport Rebel on May 12, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, Selanne’s trade and Kariya not getting his qualifying offer were not all taht different. At the end of the day, management told Kariya and Selanne, “You’re not worth what we said we’d pay you.”

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Were you a former lover of Kariya I’m guessing?

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

that post above was to Jen by the way not u arthur lol

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm…AK, gotta go back and re-read my piece. I was 16 when I met him. This isn’t Kentucky, so that’s called jail bait, my friend.

Arthur has a man crush on PK. He’d better be careful, though. Brookbank might get jealous :)

Writer for Anaheim Calling
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks

by Jen Neale on May 12, 2010 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

hey now. watch it with the bromantic innuendo. I don’t think I’ve ever man crushed on a hockey player. An athlete, probably. Say . . . Joe Montana, but that man is just gorgeous.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Denial. First stage of bromance…

I hear Joe Montana is making a comeback. He’s wearing shapeups!

Writer for Anaheim Calling
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks

by Jen Neale on May 12, 2010 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

that broke my heart. Now I have to buy shapeups. A man should not wear chunky shoes! What’s the formal version of shapeups? Clear heels? Damn you, Joe! Can’t you sponsor condoms or KY Intense or something!?

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

no offense would wreck us all in a fight

by Albert K on May 14, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t give a fuck what you or anyone else calls me, I’m booing Ryan Whitney. My reason for doing so is simple. He didn’t just under perform in regard to his expectations, he simply was atrocious. It was so appalling that (and I’ve said it once before on here) it felt as if he wanted us to lose. I say this based on his performance in relation to his salary being paid by our organization. I understand the fact that Murray brought him in to fill a certain role that he was not fit to fill, but there’s a difference in failing to fulfill a role you’re not suited for and being an utter fuckface on the ice. Fuck Ryan Whitney

There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.

by Natesaduck on May 12, 2010 12:37 AM PDT reply actions  

Whitney was a square peg the entire time he was here. It was like hiring a masseuse to do back surgery. Poor guy was hung out to dry once he was taken away from Pronger. I’m pissed about how he performed, but in the grand scheme of things, he’s nobody to us or our organization. Just some dude who stopped through. I hate Wiz more than I hate Whitney.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

That’s really a reason to boo him while he’s still wearing a Ducks uniform. He didn’t ask to be traded or anything. It’s hard to make your point once he leaves.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually the reason why a lot of people booed Ryan Whitney had nothing to do with his performance in a Ducks sweater, it had to do with his performance in an Oilers sweater. I’ve heard a lot of people get all bent out of shape about this, but no one remembers why people were booing him. He skated over to our bench not once, but TWICE, during the third period of a game at Rexhall Place. During those two visits to our bench he mouthed off to our team, but that wasn’t the bad one. During his second visit he speared one of our players (Bobby I think) and preceded to mouth off and throw punches. THAT is why he was booed at Honda Center, because it took place just a few days earlier (maybe a week or so). I give us Ducks fans a lot more credit than to just boo someone because they suck.

by haloduck on May 14, 2010 2:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with Halo on this one. The first game in Edmonton after the Whitney/Lubo trade, Whitney showed that he was as classless as they come. He was sucker punching Bodie, yapping at the bench, spearing Bobby, etc. That’s the reason I boo’d him at Ponda.

Had he not done that, I would have been cheering…because he was not our problem anymore!

Writer for Anaheim Calling
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks

by Jen Neale on May 14, 2010 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

oh, okay. People on Battle of California couldn’t really explain it, whether it was something he said about being determined to be a superstar now that he was an Oiler or whether he just played so much better and tougher for the Oilers, i.e. that crosscheck to the head.

I don’t know if a few cheap shots really puts him as a boo-able in my mind, personally. Ott and Avery has taken plenty of cheapshots at us and we don’t boo them. I remember Grimson came at us HARD his first game back and didn’t get booed. I dunno. Maybe I’m picky with my booing.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 14, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whether it’s “boo-able” or not is certainly debatable, but I think it’s important to point out why people were booing. I was sad when all of a sudden Ducks fans were stupid and classless because we booed someone that played poorly for us. I like to think we’re better than that.

by haloduck on May 14, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say stupid and classless, I said we look like a bunch of morons for unleashing vitriolic boos on Whitney. And I stand by that in light of a spear. I don’t think he owes us anything less than his competitive best, cheapshots and all, by virtue of having played here. I don’t remember us booing Rob Blake after he speared Perry in the giblets. Yeah, he crosschecked Blake first, but Bobby’s unleashed plenty of cheapshots this year, so I don’t see the situations as being vastly different.

Generally, I’m just saying that booing everything is like starting a fight after every body check. Some checks are perfectly clean and legal, even if they shake your guy up. No reason to boo everything. That doesn’t mean I don’t boo, or I want to be the final say on what does and does not get booed. I booed Gary Suter for crosschecking Paul Kariya to the face, I booed Craig Ludwig for elbowing Selanne in the head, I booed Steve Ott for trying to eye gouge Moen. If that standard’s too strict for most Ducks fans, cool, I just thought it was something people should consider.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 15, 2010 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t look at it Whitney fucking sucks. I look at it as Whitney got us fucking Lubo!

by Newport Rebel on May 12, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

why in the world would steve tambellini give us lubo for whitney one of the best d-man in the nhl skill-wise for a pile of crap… puck daddy summarized it well: “Tambellini says throw in a sixth round pick. Murray chokes on his coffee.” LOL

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

i look it as whitney was lazy and got us vis

by Albert K on May 14, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

All in all, good take Arthur. You’ve made some valid points and I agree with most of them. However, I think there’s probably a 5% chance we’ll see Paul in an Anaheim uniform this season.

There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.

by Natesaduck on May 12, 2010 1:30 AM PDT reply actions  

 I would not be surprised if fans are thinking Kariya, Koivu, and Selanne, but
Murray is still here, so it is very likely that it would happen. I wish him luck, but I don’t want him back here unless he really wants to be…and so does everyone else, on the team that is.

by Buick on May 12, 2010 7:20 AM PDT reply actions  

At this stage, if he comes, I can’t imagine it’s for any other reason than because he wants to be here and retire as a Duck. I think players understand the business better than we do and I imagine they’d welcome him back.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, if you believe Eklund, and really no one should, he’s spoken to sources on the Ducks side. But they have a mountain of forwards and they gave Bobby #9, so if the interest is coming from the organization, it could be Selanne pulling the strings more than anything else.

I think we all assume players love playing in Anaheim, because they don’t say otherwise, but there are certainly players that aren’t impressed. Prospal couldn’t wait to leave, but he showed up for work while he was here. He’ll be happy playing with Selanne; we know that much.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can’t be the only person who is 12 kinds of excited over the prospect of a PP unit that features Kariya and Niedermayer at the point. PK units would be lost on the ice.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 9:53 AM PDT reply actions  

Well as a new Ducks fan

all I can say is that I have allegiance to only one number 9 and something tells me that bringing back the one would mean getting rid of the other. We’re already overloaded with forwards and I don’t think it would be in the team’s best interest (especially for the future) to do so.

The other thing is that sports fans as a whole are not as rational and level-headed as you and Arthur. For a team that has some attendance issues, bringing back a polarizing figure probably is the wrong move to build a loyal following.

The only analogy I see to this situation is Trevor Hoffman. Dude left town 2 years ago because things got nasty between him and the FO. But every Padre fan would welcome him back with open arms and we all know he’ll get one last save with San Diego. I just don’t get the sense that people have the same sentiment toward Kariya, but I could definitely be wrong.

by PhantomPretender on May 12, 2010 10:53 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think coming back has a way of healing the situation. People don’t mention the fact that Selanne had the option of coming back in 2003, too. But he also chose not to. He also went to “play for a winner.” Paul’s not a nice guy, so I’m sure people stored up some anger at him because he avoided autographs and such, but I don’t know how many people actually begrudge his contributions to the team. There are plenty of players these days signing one day contracts to retire in a uniform. I’m sure if he signed a short deal to finish his time here, it would make sense.

Without Selanne, Koivu and Ryan, we don’t really have too many forwards. Kariya arguably gets you the first two on a discount, and that gives you the opportunity to trade Blake or Lupul for defense, which Murray has already intimated he’s willing to do. It’s not too bad a move if your GM isn’t willing to pay anyone on the free agent market, and last I checked, ours isn’t.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also, as a new hockey fan, you should know that 9 is a loaded number, like 10 in soccer. From Richard versus Howe, to Gretzky doubling it, to Lemieux flipping it over, it’s the sport’s most sacred numeral, even when it doesn’t appear by itself, right side up. No one owns it, say the way Esposito owned 7 in Boston before Bourque wore it, and everyone wants to wear it, but it is a big deal to take it from a guy who was the longstanding franchise leader in most statistical categories.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you’re right, I certainly wouldn’t lament Bobby’s departure. Maybe it’s talking on this site, but I’m beginning to get a sense that people revere the ice he skates on, and I don’t know if he’s earned that. He’s put up some fancy numbers, but as I’ve said before, what else? Like it or not, Bobby Ryan is our best trading chip. If he has to go, I’m calling Montreal right away. Bobby Ryan for Subban and Carey Price. Maybe we can flip Price and our 12 to get Florida’s 3. It would allow them to move Vokoun with a lighter conscience. We pick up two blue chip D prospects, one who has already shown he can play in the NHL for long minutes and in high pressure situations. Brett Connolly or Emerson Etem, both of whom are terrific scorers, might fall to 16. We’d still be set with young talent. Lupul is nowhere near 30 and except for that awful year in Edmonton, he’s been a pretty consistent 20+ goal scorer. Beleskey has a wonderful shot. Bonino and Deschamps are looking good and one of them can probably be moved to the wing.

I’m mostly playing devil’s advocate, but there’s also a bit of legitimate resentment for how some fans seem to be treating him. The kid hasn’t walked on water yet, and he disappeared in that Detroit series two springs ago. I’m just saying, we can survive without him, and use him to make really good moves.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Carey Price? I say we don’t move anyone for a big asset we may or may not be able to eventually move for something better somewhere down the road if everyone complies. That’s Albert K GM-ing.

Plus, I know you’re high on Connolly, but there are big durability issues with someone with a long medical history. Not just the separate injuries to each hip, but also the concussion. He’s someone we pick up with multiple picks, sure, but you’ve got to consider the whole player. You can’t build tomorrow’s team on potential. Etem and Conolly are guys that might not see the next level at the same time. Whereas Lupul and Ryan could very well play a strong contract together.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is why there need to be more 3 way deals in the NHL. I agree that complying is a serious component, but Price is going to get moved and someone is going to be interested. Even if it’s not Florida, we will be able to move Price for assets or let someone sign him to an offer sheet and take the draft picks. Either way, we expand our assets. Yeah, Lupul and Ryan growing on a contract would be nice, but so would Sbisa, Subban and Clark shoring up the blue line for a decade. Connolly’s a recent example I read about, I’m sure the Ducks have access to more draft information than I do.

The movement of Price isn’t really a question. After this playoff performance, Halak will get the no. 1 job in Montreal and they will move Price. Florida is a contingency example, not an end all be all. Someone will need goalie help and we will be able to send him there. Granted if we can’t get Price first, then this deal falls apart. But, the initial deal giving us his rights will yield something.

by Daniel AC on May 12, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Problem is, if we can’t move Price, we’re stuck in the RFA negotiation room with him, and we can’t use Price. A goaltender you can’t use is an elephant in the room asset. Acquiring an extra forward isn’t a problem, because you can get lowballed in a forward for defense deal, and Murray would be happy to do that. He moves Blake or Lupul to Minnesota for Zanon and a pick, he’s good. You can’t dump a goaltender as easily, and you certainly can’t get a good price (no pun intended) on him if everyone knows you can’t use him. Acquiring Price is only a good move if we can actually use Price. We can’t, and we’re looking at a market that could have proven netminders like Turco, Nabokov, etc. Why go with a guy, good as he is and was as a prospect, who was just beat out for his playoff job when you can go with guys who’ve actually seen the postseason on a regular basis.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

wow who needs price big mac is awesome u fools!

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Price was a great young goalie. He was supposed to be the next big thing in Montreal. Kid had a little trouble with the pressure. That’s not surprising; Montreal is a microscope. Carey Price might be the Craig Anderson of next year. He’ll get out of Montreal and be allowed to grow somewhere where the microscope won’t be a problem. He’s only 22 years old. We could acquire him now, make him Hiller’s back up and hand over the reigns when he’s 26. He might not like that, but he’d actually make a great asset. Even if he lost his no. 1 job though, he might try to get 2 -3 mllion in RFA negotiations which is the problem Arthur brought up. I don’t think the problem is whether or not Price is a good goalie. He is! The problem is dealing with his contract and the ability to move him. I’m confident that the Ducks can move him and that there is a use for him, in this organization. Even if he might not be 100% happy with that role.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

wow ur nice i hate price dude he completly blows

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Double Reply

First, to Arthur’s point about the sanctity of 9 in hockey: I had no idea, and I suspect most new/casual fans don’t either. That’s the great thing about blogs and I think its more support for why you guys should do your Duck Calls series.

Regarding Bobby: I think that when people first develop a love for something that they tend to glom on to a very distinct part of it. For me and the Ducks, its Bobby. Ill probably lose this intensity as I learn more about the game and better educate myself.

That said, as much as you guys don’t understand the Kariya hate, I think you’re also missing out on the Bobby love. As veteran fans, you have a unique perspective. But for newer or casual fans, there’s a very real reason we are so enamored with Bobby: we’ve been conditioned to. Over the past season and a half, he has steadily gained more and more real estate in the team’s marketing and merchandising. His on-ice pefrormance notwithstanding, we’ve been taught by the team’s marketing group and the press to revere Bobby in a certain way. I tend to think he’s a better asset long-run for the team than you do, but I also think that he’s legitimately talented and not as easily replacable as you suggest. I’m thinking of doing a SWOT-style analysis of the Bobby situation this weekend to try to examine this situation from every angle. I do admit that I’m relatively surprised by how under-whelmed you guys appear to be.

by PhantomPretender on May 12, 2010 11:47 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I’m not underwhelmed by Bobby. Going back, I wouldn’t have picked Jack Johnson over him like most boards said we should have. I miss his physicality, and I think it was better for the team than the cute shit he tried to get away with this year. But generally, I think he’s a good player. He probably can’t dominate on his own; he maybe needs a pure playmaker to bring him to that next level in terms of goal scoring, but he’s good for what he does.

There are a few reasons Bobby gets the marketing reverence. First, he’s an American player. I, too, love American players. Granted, I wish they came from the traditional American pockets, like Minnesota or New England or even Michigan, but Jersey/Philly’s cool, too, I guess. Plus, he spent time in California, and his father Bob Stevenson grew up a Philly fighter— doesn’t get more American than that. Also, the fans clamored for Ryan. He was our first high pick in a while, and he was a topic of conversation at every fan forum and discussion. ‘Why are we sheltering Ryan? Why don’t we play Ryan? Prove to people he’s good enough to be drafted behind Crosby.’ So, I get why he’s loved.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 12, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah daniel please enough with the bobby hate

by Albert K on May 12, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

you say hate, I say the ability to analyze a player for more than whether or not I like him.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thats the the thing, though

You’re not objectively analyzing him. You even admit that you’re irritated by the reverence he gets. If that really irks you so much, I think its more than fair to question your objectivity.

by PhantomPretender on May 13, 2010 9:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Objectively, if you look at the numbers, his performance last year didn’t project into this year, so there’s nothing wrong with being a little disappointed. Eighty more shots, 30% more ice time, 17 more games, all for 7 more points. And you could argue that Lupul sniped better on the top line and Beleksey banged and shot better. He’s a great contributor, but the numbers and the way he fits into the current lineup don’t justify him being anointed team superstar or anything.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

This isnt meant to be snarky or bitchy

but how did Getz, Perry, and Selanne do from last year to this year? Was there a general offensive malaise?

by PhantomPretender on May 13, 2010 11:29 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

First, I never said I was objective. I said I was able to critically analyze. Those are not the same things. Trust me.

Second. Perry played 4 more games, took 13 less shots, and scored 4 more points. Granted, he scored 5 less goals. But that can easily be attributed to the fact that when Getzlaf went down at the end of the season, Perry had to do distribute the wealth a little more. He wasn’t playing with a top center, and it showed. Snipers need someone to get them the puck.

Getzlaf played in 15 less games and scored 22 less points. He also took 78 less shots than last year. yes the production would have been lower than last year, but not by too much. The point is, that Getzlaf and Perry played what they always played and did about the same output. Bobby say a large increase in his time, but didn’t generate a huge output. Getzlaf and Perry are pretty much completed and consistent players. Bobby isn’t that.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

You bring up a good point against Bobby actually. The Ducks were actually able to hold steady this year with only five fewer total goals for, a .06 reduction in goals for per game, and even a one goal increase in goals scored 5 on 5. They actually climbed in the offensive rankings this year. They slipped, defensively, obviously, but that creates more wide open situations and more situations where they need to score rather than hold a lead. So Bobby was getting a shot at a tastier pie, especially at even strength.

You never know, it could be a confidence issue, but right now Bobby doesn’t look as dominant as Getzlaf or Perry can be one-on-one. Perry can dangle to his heart’s content and Getzlaf can change that shooting angle about six feet on a goaltender. Ryan’s a great finisher, and if he could get cross-crease saucers like that one he got from Christensen last year, he’d be money for a Richard. But beyond his jump into the crease move, which is very hard to get away with in the West, he hasn’t shown that pure one-on-one snipe.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah I wasnt sure

about the year-to-year comps so I thought it would be an interesting point of analysis.

At the risk of defending Bobby to the point of absurdity, I think there could be two legitimate reasons for a slight decrease in production this year: he’s probably being better covered now since he’s developed a reputation and he also spent a lot of time bouncing between lines. Of course, if I understand 08-09 correctly, he travelled across lines then as well. I do think though (without looking at game logs) that he seemed the most susceptible to being juggled across lines in a given game. In 08-09, Bobby seemed to play with the same line over the course of a game and graduated through the lines.

by PhantomPretender on May 13, 2010 12:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think he was actually doing more to, and I’m going to use NBA terminology here which I know you hate, create his own shot last year. Especially on dirtier lines where goals weren’t scored on the rush. He hasn’t done that this year, and sadly a lot of opportunities come on the rush on top lines, so you start to wonder if he can score dominantly while matched up consistently against the NHL’s best or if he wouldn’t maybe thrive in a second or third scoring line situation.

Obviously, like the NBA, he can learn to create his own shot, but right now he’s money in a set play but finding misses and misfires as the lead attacker on the rush. The best example I can think of to illustrate that is the December 4th game against Minnesota. Lupul’s goal to open the game was a smooth snipe on the rush. Bobby’s goal came streaking into the slot with a pass from behind the goal line. On the top line, you’ve got to be able to deliver like Lupul did.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can think of two

specific instances where B-Ry has gone coast-to-coast by himself (the hat trick goal against Quick and the goal against Columbus this year) but I wonder if a better question might be what kind of player best complements Getz and Perry? Both of them like to work in the dirty areas and we know Getz doesn’t shoot often. Is it better for them to have someone who’s shooting off the rush or someone that’s waiting for a feed to hammer home a goal?

This might seem like heresy (and I fully admit I never saw Teemu in his prime) but Bobby and Teemu seem to score similar types of goals. I don’t really see Teemu scoring on breakways that often anymore, most of his goals come off feeds from other players. So my question is this: Is that style of offense bad? Wouldn’t it be a good thing to pair a finisher with people who are going to hit and pass?

by PhantomPretender on May 13, 2010 1:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I can’t remember the goal against columbus; I don’t think it was open ice top shelf. The coast-to-coast goal wasn’t actually coast-to-coast. It was a neutral ice pass from Getzy as I recall, and Bobby put a Savard spin on Harrold and jumped into the crease, a move he’s put on Turco and many other goaltenders. No real sniping involved there, and there are plenty of qualified defenders out West that would put a guy on his wallet.

yeah, seeing Teemu that way is DEFINITELY a factor of not seeing him in his prime. He has become a bit of a power play specialist and garbage goal specialist, but the man was once unstoppable. You don’t score 76 goals as a rookie because everyone’s creating goals for you. Granted, he was a five hole man back then, but he was money at forcing goalies to open up.

I should clarify. This ISN’T a shortcoming. Bobby can always learn to do this. He certainly learned to build his stamina and be a more physical player in the AHL. But right now it’s still a question mark.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Teemu used to undress goaltenders. There were times when it got down right embarrassing. I think Bobby’s problem, and maybe it was a problem for the whole line this year, he just stopped being gritty. He wasn’t doing the same work in the corners that made that line a huge success in the first place. They are at their best when everyone is mixing it up.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

He has shown that pure one-on-one snipe on occasion. Though his attempts for that move fail far more often than not. And as Daniel pointed out previously, that often leads to rushes the other way or at the very least a wasted offensive opportunity. Still, when he picks that corner, you can’t help but say “That was fuckin’ sweet” every time.

I agree with Daniel on this subject. Personally, I picked Bobby to easily surpass 40 goals this past season, Getz to peg that 100 point mark, and Perry to be near 40 goals and 90 points. All in all, a disappointing year for the trio, particularly the Ryans. I can’t help but think they might flourish more consistently if Lupul plays on the top line while Ryan plays on the second line.

There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.

by Natesaduck on May 13, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bobby can definitely place the puck, especially when it’s fed to him. The problem is being able to dangle and shoot in traffic and find your own shot. There are money three point shooters in the NBA. But if you can’t dribble it to the line yourself, if you just go to the corners and wait to be open, it’s very hard for you to take over a game.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can see that as being the issue, but what was so different this year? Why was he unable to ‘create his own shot’, while last year he took us all by storm with his puck control and finesse?

There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.

by Natesaduck on May 13, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Part of it could have been, as Arthur pointed out, he was forced to play on lines with people who couldn’t create shots for him. I was just reading an article in the Hockey News about how the Pens should trade Malkin to Edmonton in a package for the first overall pick. Then Taylor Hall could get set up by Crosby to his heart’s content and just pile up the goals. I think we expected, and Bobby too, a similar thing to happen when he started playing with Perry and Getzlaf. He expected them to do the work so he could skate in and put away rebounds and great passes. Some of that was happening. But when he was on the second line with Koivu and Sexton, he had to create his own space and we saw more of what we always expected from Bobby.

There’s a chance that adapting to a new role, and the overall struggles of the team took their toll on the kid. Mostly, I think he quit on too many plays. I think he didn’t use his body to create space. I think he was less willing to go into high risk areas unless he was 100% sure he was going to score. On the rush, he wouldn’t dangle for a good shot, he would usually just try to shoot through defenders. Yes, you can pick a corner sometimes, but it’s not the best method for shot creation. He needs to do a better job of attacking the net and less work relying on that shot.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we definitely

just see things differently. I can’t think of a time that Bobby quit on a play and I always got the feeling he hustled on the ice. I HAVE felt like Getz and to a lesser degree Perry have given up on plays, but I’ve never felt that way about Bobby. But I could certainly be seeing what I want to and I honestly may not know what qutting on a play looks like.

by PhantomPretender on May 13, 2010 1:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t know if it’s differently. If you check out Arthur’s comment right below, I think you’ll get a better idea of what I mean. Bobby quit on playing the way that was effective. Yes, he’d hustle to a puck, but then would he keep it along the boards and take the hit, or move it as soon as possible to get into the slot. Scoring a lot of goals doesn’t make you a sniper. Crosby scored 50 this year. Does anybody honestly think that guy isn’t a playmaker? Bobby is built like a power forward and he has those tools. You’re right in saying that he looks like Selanne. My point is that he SHOULDN’T look like Selanne. He’s not a sniper. If he becomes one, that’s a waste of size and his ability to be dominant on that top line.

by Daniel AC on May 13, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t say that I expect him to be a power forward. I think we’ve painted him that way because he doesn’t have too many moves, just that one Savard spin, which he often uses to attack the crease. If he wants to be a perimeter shooter, he’s welcome to it, but he’s got to close the deal. I don’t care if he ever puts on another hit, but he’s got to at least get better at the game he’s trying to play.

I wouldn’t call his problems right now quitting as much as bad decision making. If you’re going to make the pretty play, you HAVE to finish it more often than not, because the pretty play can put you or everyone out of position. Koivu tried some cute Eastern Conference shit for a few games, too, but he snapped out of it quickly.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mean I think some of what you guys say is right, but I think it’s time to start examining this roster bottom up… no excuses for anybody even the captain… this crap of scotty is our life and we are nothing without him is tying us up and letting him play drama queen. his play this year and last has been horrible but some of it was due to terrible partners (wiz)…. however he seemed like during this season he didn;t care and just kept making the same damn excuses and he made lots of stupid penalties… maybe its time we let him go if we need the space but he’s still a great player no doubt

by Albert K on May 14, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Part of me agrees with you that no one man is bigger than the team. However next year I think we are better with him than without him if he can come in a reasonable price.

by Newport Rebel on May 14, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

agreed maybe 4 to 5 mil but as arthur or daniel already mentioned no way will he want to be the second highest paid defenseman behind lubo…

by Albert K on May 15, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dont think a matching Lubo offer is a slap in the face. We should pitch that and see what happens.

by Newport Rebel on May 15, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

hopefully he isn’t that greedy

by Albert K on May 15, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I said in the preseason that Bobby looked a little too loose this year, and that’s a bad thing for a guy who played a very disciplined overall game his rookie season. He just generally wasn’t as deadly. Those shots that sail over the net, the cute no look passes into the crease, not willing to be the banger because it would mean he’s out of the play. Those are all things that would get Sexton or Beleskey sent down.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 13, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t boo past players, because they played for a paycheck and it was Management’s decision to let them go. I have favorites who left and I actually prefer to watch them succeed: Andy McDonald, Kunitz, Beauchemin, Gigure, Pronger, Travis Moen. There are others such as Paul, that left me feeling cold and indifferent. I’m not angry wth him, because he didn’t hurt the organization. He made his choice and has suffered from it. I don’t root for him or against him. To me he is just Paul.

by on and on on May 12, 2010 8:42 PM PDT reply actions  

I think some people still boo Kariya for not just the Disney/Murray/Colorado fiasco, but for the grand sum of all his weasel-ness. Don’t forget, this is the same guy that held out for an absurd amount of money to toe the NHLPA’s line, his holdout played a part in the eventual lockout due to the escalating salaries.

He’s shown repeatedly that he’s nothing but a contract whore. You don’t go sign with Nashville and then the Blues as an aging veteran if you’re not looking to maximize your contract potential (read: padding the stats).

He hasn’t been the same players since the Suter hit. Today, he’s nothing but a soft perimeter player with less than ideal defensive zone coverage, an overpriced contract, and injury prone. Ducks already have that in Jason Blake.

"Whenever I’m suffering from insomnia, I just look at a picture of a Toyota Camry and I’m straight off."

by Morbo on May 17, 2010 5:26 PM PDT reply actions  

The article above is actually dealing primarily with the holdouts, so I’m not sure if you read it, but the wisdom back then was that Offer Sheet moves by players like Joe Sakic and Sergei Fedorov were protests on the ‘94 Lockout. What led to the ’94 Lockout was high salaries and the owners wanting a salary cap. What saved the players from that was selling out the younger players and keeping players RFA’s until they were 31. Kariya was just one of MANY players that didn’t like that. And Joe Sakic, who basically tried to screw the Avalanche with a 15M signing bonus deal, is beloved in Colorado and not at all thought of as a weasel.

The CBA is a big bitch, especially in the NHL where players have the weakest union in the major sports, mostly due to Alan Eagleson’s corruption. I think it’s a fan IQ thing on whether or not you choose to side with players or management. I’ve always been a players guy, and I will remain that way until I read a fair CBA. Maybe some time before I die that will happen.

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 17, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

and if you think offer sheets were fair, don’t forget that the first successfully offer sheeted player in the HISTORY of the NHL was Scott Stevens in the 90s. How’s that for a fair CBA for you?

by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 17, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

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