The Kariya Konundrum
by DucksCup6607 on May 6, 2010 6:01 PM PDT
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PrintSo from a certain rumor website we all know comes talk of our old friend Paul Kariya coming back to finish his career in Anaheim with his old buddy Teemu. In the perfect world I would sign Kariya and Koivu in the offseason and begin the most intriguing possibly devastating line combination we have seen in a long while. We know Selanne and Kariya can play together, we know Selanne and Koivu can play together, is it a far stretch to imagine that Koivu and Kariya could play together just as well? Many would argue that Kariya is a risk coming back from two surgeries last season, (one on each leg) but his production since returning eases my mind on that matter. However, with the way Selanne, Blake, and Koivu played together last season, I would love to see them continue to play together still. So how to choose. . . Do you bring back the man that was the face of this franchise for so long to reunite the dynamic duo plus a Finnish friend? Or do you stick with what works in the Old Timer Line and keep Blake around?
Mind you this is all considering if somehow, someway we would be able to re-sign Bobby Ryan, re-sign Koivu, and sign an free agent defensemen or resign Great Scott if he doesn't retire and STILL be able to fit Kariya under the cap. Not to mention if we did sign Kariya, what would we do with Blake and Lupul? Both make about 4 million each. Do you try to make a third scoring line AGAIN, or do you trade them and try to get some defensive help? I don't like the idea of a third scoring line because I think in the Western Conference you need the checking line AND the energy line to keep up the physical presence.
How much would you be willing to sacrifice to see possibly the sweetest Duck line ever play together, and is it worth not only the risk of it failing, but the sacrifice of the future of younger players (Lupul, Sexton?) to see glory for most likely only one season (depending on how much Teemu has left in the tank at the end of the season and how long we sign Koivu and Kariya for).
Well, what do you think?
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Daniel and I have gone over the Kariya situation before
here and a follow-up here. Neither post is meant to dispel anyone’s hatred of Kariya, but you should make sure you hate the guy for the right reasons. And since I can’t help but anticipate this will descend into a discussion between Kariya-haters, I thought I should put out how Daniel and I feel on the subject in case anyone forgot.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 6, 2010 6:16 PM PDT reply actions
just noticed this, but that second link was supposed to be here.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 11, 2010 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Just posting a link for the Eklund (4)-ey goodness
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 7, 2010 10:37 AM PDT reply actions
Statistically, the Ducks were 7th overall in goal scoring and 22nd in goals against. As much as I’d love to see some of the old magic Kariya and Selanne used to inflict upon opposing goaltenders, I believe the Ducks need to direct as much payroll as possible towards fixing the holes in the defense. The offense is fine, the defense is horrible. The Ducks really don’t need Paul Kariya.
Maybe, but Blake can probably be moved. He has a high cap hit, but a low salary. I’m sure a few teams would be interested. The Ducks have a few prospects to up the D. Also, If we do move a Jason Blake, or if someone decides they liked enough of what they saw in Lupul, we can get D in return. There are a lot of ways to make this work. Besides, never underestimate the feel good story. Kariya being back could spark a fire in this team.
Quite an interesting thread. Thanks for the inspiration for my next piece :) Paul and I have a lot of unresolved issues…
Now that he’s given up on “playing for a winner”, Kariya would have to take a significant pay cut to come play here, especially if the Ducks plan on keeping Teemu, Scotty, Saku and Bobby.
One thing we all seem to agree on is that Lupul isn’t going anywhere. I think Murray is dedicated to seeing him succeed, considering what was given up to get him. I’ve said it before, and again, just my opinion, he’s damaged his own value with his off ice antics.
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Now that he’s given up on "playing for a winner"
I’ve never understood the anger towards this statement. The anger towards his statement at the rally, I get, but this has always puzzled me. Sure, it’s disparaging, but we didn’t make the playoffs without him that year, so it’s not entirely untrue. And it was said in the context of someone who didn’t receive a qualifying offer, so I don’t even know how obvious the dig was really supposed to be.
On a related note, while Kariya will have to take a pay cut for various reasons if this is true, the Ducks not being a winner will be relevant in the free agent market this coming year generally, not just for Kariya. We didn’t look like a strong team at all last year, and that won’t help us negotiate with UFA’s
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Look friendships do not always go perfectly. Paul and the Duck’s fanbase have had their fair share of arguments but he has done alot of good for the Ducks in the past years as well (including his stellar play for St Louis making that a few extra wins a season.) All in all if Paul was the same old Paul that we loved as a Duck I would say yes in a heartbeat but he is not that guy anymore. He has lost a step or two. We have a good group of veterans that are still playing at a very high level. Lets not try our luck and end up getting a lemon.
It’s not as big of a gamble as you think. Paul essentially had his Selanne year. The only difference is that Selanne had his recovery year during the lockout so nobody noticed. Paul had some corrective surgeries to fix long time nagging injuries in his hips. He hasn’t lost a step at all. When I was watching at the end of this year, he looked almost like the old Kariya. Yeah, he was hurt all year. But, he needed those surgeries so he could be a productive player. We won’t get a lemon.
i say highly unrealistic because like someone said our offense is fine but we have a surplus of forwards again that we may need to trade…. example one: Ryan Carter
I always liked Carter. He just doesn’t seem to be getting any playing time unless there are some major injury problems with our forwards. That said, no I don’t think we should trade him. I also don’t think we should sign Kariya, unless he somehow takes a GIGANTIC cut in pay AND only if we plan on rolling 3 scoring lines. All that being said, it’s not happening. There’s just not enough space in terms of cap and forward depth. After signing Koivu, Ryan, Teemu, and Scott, the rest of the cap will be focused on defensive depth.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
If we move Blake and Marchant without picking up salary, which is possible, that’s picking up an extra 5.125 in cap space. I can’t imagine Kariya asking for more than 3 million, and Selanne has been handing out the hometown discount like he gets tax breaks for it. That gives us 25 million. here are some hypotheticals: Niedermayer-6, Kariya 3, Koivu, 4, Ryan 4, Selanne 2, Top 4 defenseman 5, Sbisa .875. all of that equals just under 25 million. There’s also a chance that Koivu and Ryan get about .5 less, which would save us 1 million. Which we could then flip into Sheldon Brookbank. That leaves
Forwards,
Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan
Kariya, Koivu, Selanne,
Lupul, Chipchura, Beleskey,
Sexton, Carter, Parros,
Brown, Bonino, Bodie
Defense,
Niedermayer, Visnovsky
Top 4, Brookbank
Eminger, Festerling,
Clark, Mikkelson
this is just a list of options and not a final line up. Granted, we’d have 0 money for moves later in the season, but that’s an incredible assembly of talent. I’m also not opposed to tucking Eminger in the minors and letting a younger d-man play. That would also save us about 1/2 million
Sigh…Chipchura too. Although, I would argue that Carter is a very serviceable replacement for Chipchura.
hey, no triple commenting for authors! Delete your second comment and re-comment if you have more to say! Don’t Albert K it up!
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
i thought you’d like that. Just reminding everyone not to dominate the threads, especially those with delete privileges.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you hate Chip so much, Daniel?? I love the guy.
I think Carter will be good one day, but he hasn’t matured yet. He’s still in the youthful stage of taking the dumbest penalties at the worst possible times of the game. (I will give him props for scoring during World’s. Go USA!)
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
I don’t hate Chip, clearly you haven’t seen any of the threads where I use Chipchura as the center of my pokemon line. If anything, I think it’s that I have more faith in Carter than other people do. He had 9 points in 38 games; Chipchura had 12 in 74. Granted, ALL of Chipchura’s points came in his 55 games with the Ducks, so you could say that it’s tougher estimating game. Still, If Carer plays as many games as Chipchura, he has about 6 more points and 10 less PIM.
I wasn’t in favor of the Chipchura trade from the beginning. Has he been a great player for us, yes. But I’ve always seen it as Murray giving up a resource for something he already had in the cupboard. If you ask Arthur, he can tell you that earlier this year I was convinced that Carter could compete for the Selke. I still believe that. Carter is responsible, physical, and efficient. He can definitely frustrate opposing scorers. I see him as the second coming of Pahlsson. He can stop you defensively and turn around and score on you.
I don’t hate Chipchura. It was a bad trade that got us a good player. But, if you’re talking about replacing him, then Ryan Carter is more than capable of filling that void. Just like Joffrey Lupul would make the departure of Bobby Ryan much more bearable.
Ahh yes, the pokemon line. Forgive me. I forgot that. I always do my pokemon voice when I talk about “Cheeechoo”.
Anyways, you bring up a good point with Carter. He’s going to be really good, but I think that’s a couple years away. Comparing him to Sammy is huuuuge and I have to wait to see results before I can agree.
Personal bias aside, I have to strongly disagree with Lupul making the departure of Bobby Ryan bearable. Lupul will help the team, but BR is going to be a far better player than Loops could ever hope to be.
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
I don’t know about that. In the long run, Bobby Ryan is probably somewhere between Lupul and Selanne in terms of productivity and value to a team. Selanne is a full blown super star. Lupul is a solid top 6 guy who will give you 30 goals and maybe kill penalties. This injury has given Lupul a bad rap. I think Ducks forgot too quickly how good he looked on that top line, and how good he looked killing penalties and not taking shit from anybody.
As for Carter, he’s already 26. If he’s a couple years away, we’re in trouble. Carter has been undervalued by this team, and not given the opportunity he really needs. Part of that has been due to injuries, and part of it has been due to us acquiring someone to do his job, Chipchura, even though he was doing just fine. If the Ducks would commit to letting Carter anchor a stopper line, I guarantee everyone will be happy with the results next year.
Your Carter comments are on here somewhere, I’m sure. Feel free to link people.
On your breakdown, I should note that Eminger move only saves us cap room, not actual money, so I don’t think that’s really viable, since we’re not a cap team.
I don’t think Carter is necessarily the second coming of Pahlsson, but I think he can definitely do what Marchant has done in his time in Anaheim. And he’s played on enough Ducks playoff teams to prove that. Doesn’t really make sense to me that he wouldn’t have preference over other depth players. The only thing going against him is that he’s a McNab signing, and he can’t be traced back to a draft pick like other assets.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
he can’t be traced back to a draft pick
By that, I mean that the GM has no stake in his success, other than to glorify the skills of McNab. Compare the situation to Burke trading Andy McDonald, Burke trading Curtis Glencross, Burke not making an early offer to Penner, Burke waiving Chris Kunitz, Murray trading Chris Kunitz. Ten years later Murray wants another look at Kent Huskins and Steve McCarthy, but it’s cool to trade Chris Kunitz? Yeah… ego.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
well kunitz had a high cap number and we needed a defenseman but whitney was sure as hell the wrong dude… imagine if we had gotten visnovksy last year… maybe we would have actually made the playoffs
I think you’re talking about McDonald. You can’t argue that Kunitz had a high cap number if we acquired more cap in exchange for him. Visnovsky was not an option.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 9, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Uhhh, NO. Stop posting lies! This is an informal warning that your comments will be deleted if they continue to be nothing more than misinformation.
He had JUST signed a new contract for the 08-09 season, and it’s the contract he’s currently serving under. It takes him to the end of the 11-12 season. It has a cap hit of 3.725, and it was graduated just like Whitney’s. We didn’t trade him because he wanted a raise in 2012-13!
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 9, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
If I may correct Albert K, I’m pretty sure the reason Kunitz was traded was because he was under performing that year. The move wasn’t so much cap related or even salary related unless you’re referring to the fact that his production wasn’t up to par with his salary that year. Kunitz struggled (as did most of the team that year) so he was moved. I’m not sure that was the only reason, but it was the most apparent to me.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Kunitz was best on that second line, and I think that was the plan for him when he re-signed. After moving some forwards out of town, he was forced to work the cycle on the first line, and he’s not particularly great at that, so he didn’t fit. The team changed a lot between the time he re-signed and the time his new contract kicked in. A line of Kunitz-Koivu-Selanne would have been successful, but Kunitz-Getzlaf-Perry wasn’t. Also, if you’re trying to get a broken-footed Penguins defenseman, a forward that could complement Sidney Crosby is a good bargaining chip.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 9, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
no but look at the depth chart…. hes never gonna get a shot to be our numba 2 center since we got bonino, holland, and deschamps in the cupboard…. and plus hes in the last year of his contract and im not so sure he would be willing to come back…. to me this looks like a deadline deal for a medium to low draft pick even though carter is pprety good
but look at the depth chart
Depth chart tells me we have 1.125 million locked up in a 37 year old Todd Marchant. You’re saying we’re going to play a guy 10 years his junior long enough to get the attention of a deadline deal team, then stick with Marchant as the utility two-way center? Then what? Re-sign Marchant?
We need a guy to do what Marchant did with this team, which is step in to play as an offensive center in times of injuries and trades, but mainly anchor a bottom six line. And if we’re talking Carlyle, multiple centers on a line is never an issue. If you’re saying you don’t think Ryan Carter’s the guy, that’s one thing. But if you’re saying Todd Marchant has his spot in the lineup all sewed up until he’s well into his 40s, then I have to vehemently disagree.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 8, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Ryan. Bobby asked Paul personally about the number and Paul gave him his blessing. He can’t just take it back, and Bobby’s probably not going to give it to him— we won’t be seeing a Bourque/Esposito moment. If Paul were to come back, he probably gets to be 9 up in the rafters, though. I doubt Bobby could properly overtake him there. In today’s NHL, the chances of Bobby playing nine years with the Ducks are rather slim.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 9, 2010 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions
hey never know i would love to see bobby play his entire career in anaheim… thats like saying its highly unlikely that crosby wont be with the pens in 9 years
Just out of curiosity Arthur, where did you hear that Bobby asked Paul personally about the number?
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
It was an OC Register article. Sorry I’m so lazy. Here’s the quote/link:
"I know Paul from skating with him in the summer," Ryan said. "I told him I’d like to wear it here. He wasn’t anything but supportive. I don’t think it’s something he’ll look at it like ‘Who’s this guy wearing my number?’ I think he’ll be OK with it. – OCR
Also, since I’m hunting quotes, here’s another one from Selanne:
And, yes, Teemu says the number of his longtime friend and linemate deserves to be retired. “In my mind, there’s only one No. 9,” he said. – OCR
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on May 9, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I was just curious because I didn’t know he actually asked Paul. That’s cool though. I’d like to go on record and say I don’t think Paul will sign with us
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
I think there’s a chance. It would be wild if Kariya and Selanne signed identical 2-year, $4million deals. I also agree with Teemu. There is onlyone No. 9.
You seem VERY optimistic. Is that just a feeling or do you actually think there’s some legitimacy behind what Eklund writes?
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Two men enter one man leaves. Lets get a Thunderdome for the number!
by Newport Rebel on May 10, 2010 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions
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