...The Ducks' last two offers -- five years, $25 million and four years, $18.4 million ($4.6 million average) -- were as far as the Anaheim front office says it will go. The Ducks say they're ready to sit back and see whether there's an offer sheet from another team...
almost 2 years ago
Arthur from Anaheim Calling
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So what happens if there isn’t an offer sheet? Is Bobby going to keep holding out even after the season starts? I really don’t see either of those offers as unreasonable by any means. If Bobby really wants to play elsewhere (and that may be the case) I really think it would serve both him and the organization better if he made that known so they could move him. If he wants to play in Anaheim (like he said he did) then just take the deal. If he wants 4 years, then take the minuscule pay-cut. Yes, 400k is not minuscule, but in the terms of the contract going from 5 to 4.6 really shouldn’t be the determining factor in not signing.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
It’s good for him not to say he wants to play elsewhere publicly. That takes away ALL of the leverage the Ducks have to move him. If he’s said it privately, then hopefully they can get a deal done to ship him off. I don’t know if he’d hold out. He can’t play without a contract, but it’s been a while since we’ve seen a nice quality holdout. That would also make him pretty tough to move.
There are supposedly some trades in the works. Maybe a team moves enough money to make a big offer sheet and we can get a shot at two first round picks.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Well at this point if he want to be shipped off then we should ship him somewhere where he cant hurt us and he wont be in the playoffs for a few years. I used to be a huge Bobby fan but at this point I am kind of over it. Time to move on Ducks. Lets toss him and move forward. At this point after all this I don’t see the fanbase really caring if Bobby is back or not. He has burned some of the mobs favor and even if he does come back I don’t think it will ever be the same. He had this town wrapped around his finger and he blew it.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I completely agree with you there. I used to be a huge bobby fan, but after all this drama Im kind of over it.
It would be awesome to see him sign but if the ducks could get something good for him then why force him to stay
by Kducker on Jul 7, 2010 12:24 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know that something similar didn’t happen with Corey Perry. He waited. His numbers got better. They handed him the Getzlaf economy numbers. He probably said ‘no’ with that hint of humility knowing he couldn’t ask for more than Getzlaf. Then they front loaded it to make it work with Getzy’s. Only difference is Bobby went to the press when he still had offers to turn down. Tough to take things to the press when it’s so easy for management to paint you as money hungry and not wanting to play here.
I’ve got no hard feelings against the kid, no negative opinions. He wants what he wants, and it’s his career. We’re only guaranteed four more years of exclusively dealing with him; we can’t force him into anything. Hopefully we can get four years of playing time for him.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah but Bobby said that he wanted a contract to take him to UFA and around Getzy and Perry dollars. So thats what was put on the table and he turned it down. Every moment he drags this out he gets more and more unpopular with the fans. If he wants to be moved fine but then he should let Murray know so he can get it done.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions
No he didn't
You say that Bobby got exactly the offer he wanted but he didn’t. They 5 year offer takes him past UFA so that’s instantly out. The 4 year offer is about 20 percent lower than Getz money, so I wouldn’t say its “around” their dollars.
Look, you have a right to criticize the guy, but just be accurate. He has not moved off his demands since they haven’t been met. The same thing is happening with the team. They don’t appear to be moving off their demands.
I know I’m the total Bobby fanboy around here so my arguments probably come with heaping mountains of salt. But let’s just be accurate when we talk about the reality here. Its like all the people who are upset because he turned down 5 mil/year. Its not about the money alone, its about the money in context of the term. If the team offered, and he accepted, 5 mil for 4 years would you still consider him a greedy bastard then? After all, its the same money you think he should have taken before, just at a lower term.
And even though I have no empirical evidence, I strongly suspect that he’d jump for a 4 year 20 million deal. I think its what he’s wanted all along.
As for fans turning on players, its remarkable how sucess can temper those emotions or exacerbate them. Right after losing Scotty, the fan base is in a bit of a daze and seeing a player use their leverage probably looks bad. In a different context, probably not so much.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 8:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Getzy is the cap. 80% is close enough to be concidered “around.” Is it ideal?Not for Bobby. Look he wants Getzy type money but he also wants UFA status. Thing is the team has to get something out of it too. Bobby wants his way on term and money and it doesn’t seem like he is willing to work with the front office on that. It is his way or the highway. Am I opposed to him getting paid 5 mil a year? No but I think in return asking for an extra year is not that big of a deal breaker. He says he wants to play here and if that is true then what is one extra year.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
80 percent is close?
You wouldn’t be pissed if you made 80 percent of your current salary? I understand that the analogy isn’t perfect, but the point is that a 20 percent difference between your expectations and reality is not insignificant. And when you consider a 20 percent difference in the conext of millions of dollars, its a HUGE difference.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree on that, but you seem to think the team has met his demands and I don’t. As long as there’s that fundamental difference, it will be tough to come to grips on that front.
As far as the extra year, its a huge deal for the player. What if Bobby gets maimed or seriously injured during that last year of the deal? On the flip side, it does offer some security if he gets injured in the fourth year. At any rate, players want their pay day as soon as possible since there’s no way to guarantee future success. Put it this way: if you were a contract employee with skills that were in high-demand, would you be willing to give away extra work years for security or would you want the opportunity to earn as much as 30 to 50 percent more?
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 10:02 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I’d have to disagree with your analogy here. Although I would be upset with only 80% of my current salary, you’re looking at it backwards here. It’s 80% of Getzlaf’s salary and not his. In fact, it’s a gigantic raise for Ryan, about 550% (not counting bonuses). If he achieved all his performance bonuses, a $4.6 million salary turns out to be more than a 200% raise. I don’t know anyone who would be upset with a raise like that.
I’d also have to disagree with you in that a 20% difference is huge when in context of millions of dollars. Although the actual number is large, when you’re making that kind of money, it’s not that big of a difference. Losing $400K a year, isn’t putting Ryan in the poorhouse. I understand that he needs to look out for himself, but he needs to also understand that he needs to give something up if he wants to go directly to UFA status. The only thing that there is to sacrifice is dollars in this case since it seems like term is extremely important to Ryan.
I’d also argue that wanting to go directly to UFA status appears to be an extremely selfish move – this is the case for any player and not just Ryan. It shows that all he cares about is a big pay day.
He's due for a raise
and if he was a UFA its practically a given he’d net more than the Getzlaf ceiling. The team clearly thinks 5 mil is fair, but only on their terms.
And sure, 400K a year doesn’t seem like much but when you realize its a total of 1.6, it IS a big deal.
As fans, we all have this ridiculous notion that the players should pkay for peanuts since they have a dream job. The fact of the matter is that none of us would be happy with a similar situation in our personal lives with money in context with what we’re used to. Its really easy to sit back and say a professional athelete shouldn’t quibble over 6 figures, but its unrealistic.
Bobby deserves to get paid at this stage in his career. Its part of the CBA that he has the right to seek a payment he deems fair. Again, if this occured in a comparable situation in your professional life, you probably would act more like the player than the team.
As for wanting a big pay day, of course he does. Sure, its easy to say someone like Koivu has broken the mold but he’s already made his money. I don’t fault Bobby for his stance. Did he screw up by going to the media? Absolutely. But to sit here and pretend that I know how he should act is absurd.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 12:18 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
He is not a UFA though he is a RFA. I am sure if he was UFA, the negotiations and offers would be far different. His offers on the table are raises. What it seems like is he wants both the money and the term and if he doesn’t get both then it’s no deal. It appears to look like it’s my way or the highway and if that indeed is the case it’s not a negotiation but more of a demand. That’s what irks me the most. It doesn’t seem like he wants to work things out and make a compromise with the Ducks. Wooster brings up a good point that it is 80% of Getzys contract. Getzy is the star of the team. 80% of the stars contract is not bad for a guy who has been with the club for 3 years. Yeah he has done well in those years but he is still young. Does Bobby deserve to make big bucks, yes. Does the front office deserve the right to try and get some security and want a longer term, yes. I see both sides of the argument but it just doesn’t seem that Bobby wants to work things out with the front office. Also, the forwards are stacked. We can replace him if need be. If he was a defenseman in our current situation he would have a lot more pull at the table. As for if I would take 80% in my career…. If I was in a job that was secured by 3-5 year contracts every few years, hell yes I would take a cut in order to secure another year. Especially in this economy.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
A couple of things
A) Yes, he IS RFA so he has to play by those rules. They are absolutely raises and he is not entitled to nor guaranteed anything. But how the Ducks manage this situatuon will have a huge impact on how other players approach their contract negotaitions with the team. And most (if not all) RFAs do get substantial raises so its not like were outside the realm of possibility here.
C) By what measure is Getzlaf the star of the team? He certainly wasn’t our highest paid player last year. And how did Getz’s contract compare to the star at the time he signed his deal? How did his numbers and service time to that point compare with Bobby?
B) This notion that the Ducks are the only party willing to compromise. Really? How can you say that? We have no idea what Bobby initially asked for. How do you know that he hasn’t aquiesced to a less than Getz/Perry salary? Sure, the team gets to make it look like he’s not negotiating because he turned down an offer. Its not like Bobby has gone public with the original contract offers he received. And no matter what, the team is ALWAYS going to be perceived as the victim any time an offer is turned down, no matter its merit.
C) By what measure is Getzlaf the star of the team? He certainly wasn’t our highest paid player last year or our best player. And how did Getz’s contract compare to the star at the time he signed his deal? How did his numbers and service time to that point compare with Bobby?
D) The economy of the NHL is not the same as the economy of the overall country. If you had skills in a field with comparable characteristics to the NHL, you may not go for security. Its not like anyone is suggesting that Bobby is going to be out of hockey after this contract is over and bringing in the current economy really cheapens and ignores the point of comparison.
At the end of the day, people are either going to “lose respect” for him and think he’s greedy or they’re not. All I’m suggesting is that people really think about this situatuion before arriving at either of their conclusions. It is simply far too easy to write-off and ruin a relationship with a decent player because of perceptions.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 2:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
A) You don’t think that the offers on the table aren’t substantial raises? On the flip side of that this is Bobby first real contract negotioation. You don’t want to develop a tough to deal with reputation right out of the box. Other GM’s are watching.
B) Ok so Bobby came down? From what? During the season he said he wanted a long term contract to take him to at least RFA and Getzy type money. These offers, while not exactly like Getzys are close. So how much farther up did this thing start cause it doesn’t look like it has come down all that much.
C) Yes Getzy is the star. Was he the highest paid last year no but then again Bobby was still on contract. I am talking about moving forward past the Scotty era and that started a few days before the Draft. Getzy is the star of the team marketing wise. Both the Ducks and the NHL market the shit out of Getzy at least when compaired to other west teams. When the Ducks go on the road you will hear adds about Getzy and the Ducks coming into town. Not so much with Bobby Ryan. Getzy is easily associated with the Ducks due to all the marketing. Who is to say that Bobby a few years down the road won’t be the same (I think he will) but right now we are not grading on a curve.
D) You said 80% of your current salary. I am not a NHL player nor do I assume that I will be anytime soon so therefore I am just answering your question based on the information given.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
What pics would we get for him if he took someone elses offer sheet?
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions
It’ll help when Anaheim fans realize that replacing him isn’t as hard as they think. Etem, will be ready in 2 years and a healthy Lupul is probably a Ryan equivalent who can play some better D. I know I’ve been the stalwart voice of Bobby opposition around here for a while, but I don’t know if I ever REALLY wanted him to go. It’s really tough to raise some talent and then have to ship that talent away. I guess this is what most small market teams feel like. His demands aren’t necessarily unreasonable, but I don’t know if they’re 100% reasonable either. As Arthur said, it’s his career. I just hope we get a very good return.
Ok, one more shot: Bobby Ryan and James Wisniewski for Eric Tangradi and Brooks Orpik…and maybe Kunitz. I miss that wild bastard sometimes.
I miss Kunitz as well. That guy was everything you want in a forward. He plays hard, skates hard, has some good hands, and doesn’t mind to lay a person out. He was the ideal Ducks forward.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
You could probably say he’s just a younger Jason Blake. He’s a small guy who plays with a lot of energy who can find the back of the net. He had good chemistry with Selanne and might make a better fit than Blake.
It’s all speculation though. There’s no telling where this thing will go.
by Daniel AC on Jul 7, 2010 12:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
To be honest though what would be so wrong about trading Bobby if things can’t be worked out for some blueline help? I would much rather get a defender then another forward.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I included forearm the deal to get a little extra value. The core piece of a Pittsburgh deal would be Orpik. That how I’ve been seeing it.
by Daniel AC on Jul 7, 2010 5:05 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Is Letang on the block? Wouldn’t that be nice.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Daniel, do you think a "healthy Lupul" might be a possibility?
I agree that Bobby’s offense is replaceable (and I would love that trade), but I don’t really want to be I guess I’m just not ready to be in the rebuilding mindset yet (waiting the two years for Etem).
"Abtholoootleee"
by Floyd Gondoli on Jul 7, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Of cour it’s a possibility. How much might be debatable, but we’ll have more than him to fill the gap. Sexton and Beleskey will help. Between the three of them we’ll probably replace Bobby’s production. Not to mention the D he fetches we’ll reduce the goals we give up. We’ll still be a good team. It’s not a full rebuild, just a few stop-gaps.
by Daniel AC on Jul 7, 2010 12:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Lupul was actually pretty damn good last year before he got hurt. Who knows how the rehab is going and I am not talking about the one in Vegas. Time will tell but if he picks up where he left off then we will be in good shape.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Reading LeBrun's blog
He makes it seem like the team MAY match an offer sheet, but at this point, is that really a likely outcome? I mean if the team won’t budge on a 5 mill a year for 4 years, why the hell would they match like a 5.2 or 5.5 over 4 years (these are purely theoretical numbers, I have no idea if these are realistic).
In other words, if the team is going to match an offer sheet, isn’t it reckless to hold out at this point and leave their fate in the hands of another GM?
Given all of that, it doesn’t seem like the team would match an offer sheet unless its only marginally more than their reported offer. What do you think?
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 8:50 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Well, I said in March,
I have to disagree with Bob’s approach here, as it sounds like he’s not all that interested in getting back to the table with Bobby Ryan until shortly before Ryan can entertain offers. Murray may not be the contract magician that Burke was, but his willingness to have someone else write the thing is disconcerting. – Fan Forum postand Bob has really pointed out both that he’s not in a rush (i.e. he has until December before Ryan complicates salary tagging issues) and that he’s got plenty of money (and now he’s outlined exactly how much a GM has to offer before he’ll consider letting the guy go). It’s tough to point out a strategy, beyond getting compensation, in forcing a player to sign an offer sheet. You could say that it diminishes his luster in that town (Fedorov), but offer sheets are a recent phenonmenon, as the CBA was usually (and archaically) structured to prevent player movement. Scott Stevens signed the first successful one in 1990 for FIVE first round picks. This could just be about compensation. He’s certainly put the price tag out there, though you could argue Bobby started it by talking to the press first and implying a salary close to Getz and Perry.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I'm not really interested
in assigning blame, I’m more curious about the strategy behind it all. At this point, I would be surprised if Bobby was a Duck next year as I really don’t see either side capitulating and I would be shocked if the Ducks signed an offer sheet.
And I actually think Murray going to the press wasn’t about responding publicly to Bobby and more about giving him wiggle room to make a move. Even if Bobby had never gone to the press, I think Murray still would have done this.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 10:24 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
well, it’s generally considered dirty to go to the press. As bobby’s agent pointed out, they had an agreement not to negotiate this in the press, and Bob himself was hesitant to put numbers out there, using the “between 20 and 25 million” vagueness. still, bobby went to the press first, which Murray referenced when disclosing the terms of the five year offer, so the victory in the media war goes to Bob.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah who saw Bob getting a PR victory over Bobby coming? If you would have told me that during the season I would have said to quit drinking.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know. It’s pretty predictable. Ferreira beat Kariya rather handedly, and despite making some moves and re-signing Teemu for 20 million, he still lost his job. So, winning the PR war as a GM, as long as your player still has offers to turn down, is the easy part. Turning not signing someone into a smart offseason strategy is the hard part.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes but midway through last season Bob’s favor within the fanbase was pretty damn low and Bobby was walking on water.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions
doesn’t matter. It’s like I was saying to Robby, people can’t wait to turn on him. Maybe it’s an Anaheim fan insecurity thing being afraid that people secretly don’t want to player here or something, but one hint of the fact that the guy wants out or will only stay if he gets paid and people turn on him. No real chance of doing that to the GM unless he pulls a Pocklington and trades the guy with him crying on national television about it.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 7, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It's completely true
And all you have to do is watch the evolution of people’s reactions to Bobby. He really hasn’t done anything egregious and yet people are ready to practically lynch him. It’s insane.
But I think there’s always a level of resentment that fans have towards players since a) they’re living our dream and b) they’re handsomely compensated for it. Any time you can paint an athlete as a greed bastard (justly or not), it seems to confirm our own internal biases.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 7, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I can’t help but feel Bobby is at least somewhat guilty. Going to the press was a dumb move, but it clearly indicates that he wanted to make a play of some kind. Taking his concerns to the press was really him throwing down the gauntlet and trying to see if he could use his popularity to strong arm a better contract. In the end, I think you have to be willing to compromise. There are plenty of guys around the league who take small pay cuts to make things work in the salary cap era.
I’m sorry, Bobby Ryan is pulling the equivalent of the “I’m taking my ball and going home”. It’s cool to stick up for players, but sometimes players dig their own graves. You have to at least admit that Bobby did a lot to bring this on himself.
meh, the dude got drafted to a budget team. Granted, that happens to a lot of Top 5 draft picks, but there’s nothing wrong with having very specific requests of your final RFA years with that team, especially if they just missed the playoffs. Plus, and it’s a very real possibility, if the Ducks trade him on whatever he signs, he could end up in Florida or something for two years. If you assume that he doesn’t want to play for Anaheim as a UFA, then there are very sensible things he should be asking for out of this contract.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 8, 2010 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree and disagree, and here's why
Bobby absolutely made a mistake in going to the press when an offer did exist. He was trying to insinuate that he hadn’t heard anything and his bluff was called.
But what has he actually done to earn the enmity? Here’s where I think the issue is. There’s what Bobby has said and done and there’s what fans PERCEIVE him to have said and done.
As Arthur dilligently chronicled in the other post, Bobby went to the press and said he wanted a long-term deal but thought going UFA was more realistic. He also said that he didn’t want to make more than the Twins, but he thought he deserved something around them. So, taking these statements together, we see Bobby wanting a deal that takes him directly to UFA at a salarly near Getz and Perry.
When Murray says Bobby turned down the 5/25 and the 4/18 people lose it. Why? If you read and paid attention to what Bobby said he wanted, both of these offers don’t match what he said he wants. And yet people go crazy about the 5 mil a year ignoring the extra year of UFA it consumes and they are equally irked about the 4 year deal at nearly a million less than he said he wanted.
If you want to lambast the guy for having unreasonable expectations that’s completely fair. But he did telegrapg the offer he wanted before Murray ever revealed he turned it down. He really hasn’t done anything but stick to the offer he said he wanted in the press. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember there being a lot of consternation when that article first came out. It was only when Murray revealed that Ryan turned down an offer that fans PERCEIVED to be what he wanted (but acvtually is clearly not) that they’ve lost it.
I fully agree that players can be greedy and maybe I’m going too much devils advocate in this situation. I just think the reaction to Bobby has clearly been based more on gut than on actually evaluating the facts on the ground. And for the record, I think Kovalchuck is greedy. I don’t think Bobby Ryan is.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 8, 2010 6:56 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
My argument, is that at this point it isn’t really about what he wants. His inaction is more or less the problem. Negotiations involve two people coming together and working out a deal. I’m more or less concerned with the fact that Bobby is acting like an unrestricted free agent and not a restricted one. He’s essentially telling management to give him the EXACT deal he wants, or else there’s no deal. That’s my problem. In situations like this, a budget team with superstars whom you can’t earn more money than, Bobby needs to recognize his position and quit forcing the Ducks into a deal that only benefits him. Before you argue that we need Bobby and that’s our benefit, keep in mind that we need D more than we need him.
My point is that Bobby got beat in the media war and for him to not come off his demands is starting to look more and more childish and less and less like an athlete in a contract negotiation. Your main point seems to be that the Ducks should just give Bobby what he wants. But they don’t have to, and I think he fails to recognize that. The GM says what’s best for the organization, and whether or not we agree with that, he calls the shots. At that point, you can either negotiate with him, or you can take your ball and go home. Bobby seems to want to do the latter. If that’s the case, then goodbye. By letting his next contract go straight to UFA the team assumes some risk. Normally I’m not a capitalist, but when an investor assumes risk, he expects a return. In this case, that’s the lower dollar amount on the contract. I’m just saying that Bobby needs to negotiate and not demand. The organization has placed two deals on the table that it thinks are fair. He’s going to have to find some way of working with that. Maybe he should counter with a 4 year 19.2 contract. He doesn’t reach his 5 million plateau, but he’s still the highest paid forward not named Getzlaf or Perry. Murray keeps him away from the 5 million mark and becomes a winner as well, although much less of one. Everyone is happy.
Except me, who wants to trade Bobby Ryan for defense.
I like your proposal
and I want to do a post this weekend about possible solutions.
Regarding the bargaining thing. There are two things that bother me. People say that Bobby isn’t negotiating and that he’s taking his ball and going home.
On the first point: Negotiations are a process, not a result. All we really know right now is that the team has put up two offers and that Bobby has declined them. We don’t know if Bobby has suggested counter offers, etc. But more to the point, isn’t part of negotiating being able to turn down offers? You suggest that I seem to think thw team should acquiesce to his demands. But aren’t you suggesting the exact same thing in reverse? That somehow, by not accepting the only two public offers we know about that this shows Bobby is failing to negotiate. Frankly, both the team and the player have a right to set their expectations, which is what’s happened. I think what we’ve seen is the beginning of negotiations, not the end result. This is a process, and publicly, it seems like things are just getting underway. To say that either side isn’t negotiating at this point seems a little unfair.
As for the notion that he’s taking his ball and going home, isn’t that EXACTLY what the team did when Murray said he’s done negotiating and is waiting for an offer sheet? When has Bobby ever said that its his way or nothing? Again, this whole thing is a process. But at this point, if you really wanted to pin a side as not negotiating or being stalwart in their demands, I’d have to think that Murrays statement revelas a certain obstinance that is counter-productive to negotiating. Nowhere has Bobby ever said that he’s only taking what he wants or he’s going to hold out. The team is the only party so far that has publivly admitted they could be done negotiating.
Again, I think this is all a process and were just in the beginning. Until there’s some sort of conclusion, its really hard to say whether or not they are negotiating. But at any rate, negotiations involve offers and refusals. To paint Bobby as unwilling to negotiate just because he’s turned down two offers seems unfair.
As an aside, I find it completely fascinating that were all able to make points and see this situation from a variety of perspectives. I think its what makes this blog a unique place for discussion.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 8, 2010 7:52 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I coach debate sometimes, so forgive me if I take that angle. Bobby has surrendered his offensive ground. He brought this to the press, he engaged in these tactics first, and he forced Murray’s hand. That’s a play in the context of the negotiation as far as I’m concerned. In other words, Bobby’s first jaunt into the public sphere was his way of saying he wants more from the offers he had been given. I assume these offers were the two we have labeled. At that point, Bobby has broken his claim to not negotiate through the media. That’s got to be frustrating for a GM.
The process of negotiation is not limited to offers, and counter offers. It also involves recognizing that you are negotiating from a vulnerable position. Bobby is in a vulnerable position. He has to realize that and understand that getting his trip to UFA means leaving a little money on the table. So far, I haven’t gotten the impression he understands that. This is also a ploy in his negotiation strategy though. Right now, he’s probably trying to make Murray sweat and get a little fan pressure so he can get what he wants. Murray isn’t going to cave.
I would argue that I’m not saying the same thing in reverse, simply because the organization is the one negotiating from superior footing. When you take your ball and go home, it’s usually because you are losing. Bob Murray isn’t losing this PR war; Bobby is. So, in that regard it is different. Bobby has gotten very reasonable demand, all things considered. What he wanted, maybe not. But still very reasonable. He needs to start talking if he wants us to have better opinions. Explain why he’s rejected an offer with the term he desires, then he can save some face. Right now, he looks like a kid who’s upset over losing a media battle, not a professional athlete in a negotiation.
My problem is
that rightly or wrongly, you (and others) are making attributions to Bobby’s character based on your assumptions. The fact is we have no idea why Bobby turned down the offers. But in the abcense of knowing, people are guessing or making assumptions about what this or that really means.
And I really don’t think it matters who’s winning when one side basically says “we’re done” after an initial offer is rejected. As greedy as some people think Bobby is for not taking that first offer, doesn’t Murray also shoulder some blame for seemingly slamming the door on negotiations?
I know this is all public posturing but my point remains that people are getting way too ahead of themselves in condeming Bobby when this situation is still playing out and when we know very little about what’s actually happening.
I mentioned this yesterday but teams always get to play the victim in negotiations. As soon as an offer is refused (and let’s be honest, we rarely hear about the players proposals), the team can shrug their shoulders and say “we tried” even if the offer was ludicrous (not suggesting it was here). I think people are too quick to condemn players for trying to get a fair shake and until this all plays out, I really have a hard time deciding that Bobby or the team are acting as idiots. Its a contract negotiation. It aint pretty, but they usually aren’t.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 8, 2010 10:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re trying hard to paint Bobby in a positive light, but there’s no evidence, just the hope that you might be right. Bobby took this to the media. He fired the first shot. The only thing we’re sure of from Bobby is that he wants 4 years, so he can go straight to UFA, and that he wants money closer to Getzlaf and Perry, because 4.6 isn’t close enough to 5.325.
The fact that he wants to go UFA as soon as possible means one of two things:
1) He wants remove Anaheim’s negotiation stronghold in order to drive up his own price
2) He doesn’t like it here and he wants to leave.
There’s not a whole lot after that. If he really wanted to stay here, why not take the 5 year deal and trust that Murray would take care of him. Murray isn’t Burke. If Bobby wants Murray to take into account that the organization has mistreated him, then Bobby should also be willing to cut Murray some slack and have faith that he won’t get screwed over more than necessary.
Bob also said that his 4 year proposal was immediately dismissed. Whether it was immediately dismissed, or simply declined after momentary consideration, the moral of the story is that it was deemed insufficient. Bobby has said loud and clear, by not signing, that these two offers are unacceptable. Personally, I think Bob did a good job of offering fair deals considering he still needs to upgrade his D in order to lure Selanne. Think of it this way. You go to your Boss and ask for two things. The boss says you can have one. Bobby has essentially said he wants both and won’t settle for the one. I think that’s a little unreasonable when you consider the constraints of the salary cap era. I don’t see why it’s unreasonable to argue that he should either take the term he wants, or take the money he wants. The fact that he seems unwilling to accept that he is in an inferior negotiating position is just childish.
It’s admirable the way you stick up for the guy. I’d probably be doing the exact same thing if this was Selanne we were talking about. I think I did the same thing when we were talking about Kariya, although in Kariya’s case it actually wasn’t about the money. In this case, Bobby has been offered the term he wants but still deems that money to be inadequate. It just seems to me, that all you’re going off of is that there’s a chance we don’t know what Bobby is thinking, so we should give him the benefit of the doubt. I think his desire to go to the media, and his apparently blanket rejection of these contract offers, speak volumes. Then again, I’ve spent a lot of time analyzing communication.
I probably have been over positve
but increasingly I just want to encoyrage people to be reasonable here and not make assumptions.
I’d like to think that if this was anyone else that I’d encourage people to be just as level-headed. As much as I’m probably over-defending I think others are reading too much into a situation to make assumptions and assign blame.
One last thing about the rejections: they’ve all came from Murrays description. Sure, it would be great for Bobby to provide some context but he hasn’t.
At any rate, I hope he resigns and I hope people at least give him a chance to get back in their good graces. I just don’t see the reason for the animosity many (not you) are throwing his way.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 8, 2010 1:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m trying not to have animosity, but I’m sure I have a little considering that I was one of the ones who defended Kariya for so long. I don’t see this situation as being terribly different other than Bobby is haggling over money and Kariya wasn’t.
I won’t be mad at Bobby if he re-signs with the team. I’m just frustrated that it seems like he wants to have his cake and eat it too. If you’re going to take that position, you can’t go to the media and make yourself a target like this. Personally, I’m a little sick of talking about him and I just want ANYTHING to be done so we can focus on finishing the club for next year.
Agreed completely
I just want there to be some sort of resolution so we can finish the rest of the work the team needs for next year. Even if he’s traded, just do it.
I haven’t heard of offer sheets for any players yet. When do these usually start trickling in?
by PhantomPretender on Jul 8, 2010 2:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
offer sheets are extremely rare, and a lot of teams with cap space have moved picks and can’t make them. We, for example, can’t really issue a quality offer sheet. If any team will make an offer sheet, you’ll probably see it after Kovalchuk moves.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 8, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Kariya was haggling over money as much as Bobby was. He was looking for a couple million more than the Ducks wanted to spend, or such was his original stance. Problem is, he wanted two or three years and the Ducks wouldn’t come down past five and started at ten. So they were never even close on term.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 8, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
If the Kings prove unsuccessful in their pursuit of Kovalchuk, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them send Ryan an offer sheet.
We need more Boyntons.
That’s the best trade idea you’ve ever submitted. Seriously.
by Daniel AC on Jul 7, 2010 7:37 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree. I would totally make that trade in a heartbeat.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 7, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
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