Irreparable Harm?
by PhantomPretender on Jul 9, 2010 2:50 PM PDT
in From the Flying V
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Ed. Note: Sick of Bobby pictures, Robby declined to add an AP photo to this post. I've added the obvious Bobby marketing video. That lisp is golden.
ROBBY:
So apparently there's some ongoing contractual dispute between the Anaheim Ducks and Bobby Ryan. Maybe you've heard about it? Rather than rehashing what's happened to this point, I thought I would take a different approach. How does this situation impact the Ducks from a marketing perspective and what possible (and realistic) solutions exist to avert losing Bobby or alienating the fanbase.
There's no arguing that Bobby Ryan has quickly become one of the more popular players over the past few years. He's young, talented, and American. He represented the Ducks well at the Olympics, and his boyish charm and adorable lisp have made him a beloved figure in Anaheim (well, at least until July 1st). In fact, just a few weeks ago, at the Open House, the biggest concern amongst most Anaheim fans was re-signing Bobby (with Teemu a close second).
His popularity among the fans has translated into most of the team's marketing efforts, and with Niedermayer hanging ‘em up last month, I'm sure the marketing folks at the Ducks were/are counting on prominently featuring Bobby in promotions going forward. From the commercials and pre-game videos that feature Bobby (along with Getz, Perry, Hiller, and Selanne) to exclusive merchandise at the team store (those hideous orange Bobby Bobby Bobby shirts, personalized pucks, bobble heads, etc.) and the popularity of Ryan jerseys throughout the arena, it's undeniable that Bobby has become an important marketing figure for the team.
As several commenters have pointed out, the window may be quickly closing for Bobby to avoid causing deep, lasting damage to his reputation among Ducks fans. If Anaheim loses Bobby, or if they fail to reach an amicable agreement with him, they run the risk of losing one of their biggest marketing assets. In real terms for the Ducks, this likely means decreased jersey sales (most people probably already have their Getz and Selanne jerseys, and the team doesn't have too many other marketable stars that will compel fans to pony up for a jersey, new design or not) and other Bobby-related merchandise. The team would also have to revise any of its marketing materials that heavily feature Bobby, a cost they probably would prefer to avoid. Finally, it would rob the Ducks of a legitimate American star to market, a luxury that many teams do not currently enjoy. Bobby is a valuable vehicle for gaining recognition league-wide due to his talent and American birth, and the Ducks would certainly prefer to avoid losing that if possible. Further complicating the situation is the fact that few marketable stars are available league-wide should they fail to reach an agreement with him.
So what to do? How can the situation realistically resolve itself such that fans don't want to lynch him if he resigns? After all, it will be important on the ice to have his talent back in the line-up, but off the ice, it would really hurt his peripheral value to the team.
Personally, I think a realistic situation involves Bobby signing the 5 year/$25 million deal with an added no-trade clause. This allows both sides to spin the decision situation as really being about trying to keep Bobby a Duck as long as possible, and both sides get pretty fair value out of the deal. Obviously this is contingent on Bobby accepting a deal he's already turned down, but the addition of a no-trade and the ability to avoid the ire of the fanbase is probably appealing at this point. Not only that, but a no-trade clause also signifies that Bobby is considered to be an important piece of the team going forward, something that has been speculated to be a sticking point in negotiations thus far.
So what say you? Do you think Bobby is an important marketing element to the team? If you do, how do you think this situation could be resolved in a realistic way that benefits all sides and manages to preserve Bobby's love from the fans? Any proposed deal should be fair to both sides.
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First the contract needs to get done and quickly. I know I have been hard on Bobby in my posts but I do think he can come back into the good graces of Ducks fans. The window is closing though and fast. He has a month tops before his brand tips into the cannot repair category in Anaheim. If the contract doesn’t get resolved soon and he keeps going to the press he is screwed. Right now public opinion is mostly on the side of the front office and the press interview that Bobby did really didn’t help him. If he is serious about staying in Anaheim and getting back in good with the fans then he can. He has more control of the situation then I think he realizes. People want to forgive except people in Cleveland right now. He just has to take the first steps.
Does anyone know what Bobby really wants? Usually the answer is more $$$, but from what I can tell that is not the case. So, does he want a 3, 4, or 5 year deal at this point?
He’s spoken to term to The OC Register before saying he anticipated and was interested in signing a deal that took him to free agency, i.e. four years. At the time he indicated the Ducks would go short term because of the CBA and he wanted to stay in Anaheim long term, but if you chalk the latter up to a sports platitude, he anticipated going four years. He’s never spoken about dollar amount, other than pointing out that he knows nobody makes more money that Getzlaf and Perry but thinks he’s played well enough to be mentioned with them.
I’m actually getting a little Ryan fatigue since I JUST wrote up the back and forth in the press this week, so you can look in that post if you want to know what each party is on record saying. As far as rumors behind the scenes, we can all only speculate.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 9, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah ive got Ryan fatigue too
I just wanted to cover an angle that some os may not have considered. Sorry to bring it back up :-)
by PhantomPretender on Jul 9, 2010 4:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, no worries. As the resident Ryan fanboy, gotta give you some time to talk above the fold, but I may fanpost all developments from here on out. Just kind of tired of rehashing it.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 9, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the best thing Bobby can do is take the 4 year deal. Fans usually think it’s all about the money, leaving the extra cash and getting the term he wants might be the best bet for him right now. He makes less, but he’ll get overpaid in 4 years by someone else, so no harm no foul.
If I seem cynical, I’m also suffering from a little Bobby fatigue. I get the sense he’s holding up our offseason. That’s annoying.
by Daniel AC on Jul 9, 2010 5:09 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I say we forget Bobby and Kariya and go for Kovalchuk.
That asshole that does the news thinks he's smarter than me.
You know that really not that bad of an idea.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 9, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know. No Bobby or Kariya still wouldn’t cover the Kovalchuk cap hit. We’d still need Defense. There are better answers than Kovy. I’m just not interested. That’s just me though.
We need defense (one more bigger name player) or announce we are looking at the young guys….Ryan’s brand is suffering because Murray is the one backhanding him in the media…Bobby’s agent has kept out of the spotlight (as he promised Murray) as much as we can all jump on Ryan’s hate wagon, he hasn’t said %^&$ Anaheim, or said he wants to leave, he has only talked about wanting to do the deal, and stories of how much fun Kane, Toews, and Olympic guys were to hang out with..I am sure they have swapped lots of stories.
I like Ryan, but he gets lost on the first line at times, and if he was the lone star on a third line, with opened up ice vs. a third line D, he would be an all star and OK with a 3rd line goal glut.
Bobby went to the media first. He tried to make it seem like management was talking and then he got caught lying about that when Murray told everyone what offers he had given Bobby.
by Daniel AC on Jul 10, 2010 12:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
he didn’t get caught lying. Stop reading entire novels between the lines. no one’s been caught in a lie.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 10, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Some news for you Daniel:
“In an effort to squash whatever Bobby Ryan trade rumours still exist. Ducks gm, Bob Murray wants the spec to end. He’s not trading Ryan.”
Via Darren Dreger on Twitter.
Looks like we can say goodbye to any idea of obtaining a quality defenseman for Bobby.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Damn it. I don’t want to get rid of Bobby but if we have to then I was looking forward to a quality d man coming to Anaheim.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 10, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
All is not lost, fellas. I wouldn’t be surprised if Murray still managed to acquire at least one more top 4 defenseman. Be it by trade or free agency, I don’t know how the ducks can be competitive without substantial upgrades on the blueline this offseason.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Ryan for a defenseman
You’d never get full value in trading Ryan for a defenseman.
Ryan is an all-star player… What all-star defenseman are you going to get for him? Keith, Weber, Suter… I can’t see it happening.
I’m sure that Murray knows he will never get full value in a trade.
At least the insanity that is Leaf nation has died down. The idea of Ryan for old man Kaberle and his one year contract was insane. How about Shenn, Kadri and some picks for Ryan? lol
I’d really like Murray to add a few years onto their offer. $5 million per for 7 years sounds good to me.
Ryan doesn’t want more years, that’s the problem. He was offered 5 years at $5 million a year and turned it down because he wants that deal at 4 years so he can become a UFA. Problem is that Murray won’t give him the same pay per year at 4 years.
And I really don’t understand where you come off saying “you’d never get full value in trading Ryan for a defenseman.” Where exactly is the logic in that? Why can’t we get full value or even more value trading him for a defenseman? I don’t see why we couldn’t..
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Not one of an all-star caliber, that’s for sure. It’s difficult to say, though. You’d have to take into account a lot of things when you’re talking about fair value exchange from a forward to a defenseman. Things like age, contract longevity, contract salary, potential, experience, etc. That said, I don’t think it would do us much to discuss this since Murray made it clear he wouldn’t trade Bobby.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
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With 35 goals, he was tied for 10th in goal scoring in the NHL last year and just turned 23. I see a great upside.
He had more goals than: Nash, Carter, Iginla, Richards, Kane, H. Sedin, D. Sedin, St. Louis, Malkin, Getzlaf, Perry, etc.
I never said he didn’t have great upside. I said he’s not an all-star. And one season does not make the player. Jason Blake once had a 40 goal season with the Islanders. Ryan has never scored 40. Does that mean Blake is better than Ryan? Not at all. So the logic in saying Ryan is better than Nash, Carter, Iginla, etc. is very flawed.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
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I did not say he was a better player. I stated that he scored more goals.
by ducksoup on Jul 11, 2010 9:37 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
...
My point was that he scored more goals than those NHL players, all of which make $5 million dollars or more and most would consider all-stars.
I’m done with this website. I’ve never had this rude of a conversation with a complete stranger.
by ducksoup on Jul 11, 2010 10:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Goals aren’t everything. Yeah, they’re valued a lot in this league, but it doesn’t mean that a player who scores 30 goals and 30 assists is better than the player who scored 20 goals and 70 assists. Plus, there’s a whole other side of the spectrum to consider. Like how was he in his own end? Did he backcheck properly? Things like that add to a players value.
And I don’t mean to be rude. I’m just trying to understand your side of the argument, that’s all.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
there’s no proof of that. Could just be another guy named ducksoup. Not a Marx Brothers fan, Albert K?
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 13, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I just want to add...
and I guess this is important for everyone, even if ducksoup doesn’t come back to the site to read this, but I just want to say that I want this to be a place where you can call a goal scorer into question, where there are no off limits ideas.
Obviously, there are statistical arguments, mostly related to shot distance metrics, which show that, even though Bobby and Corey Perry have similar shots/missed shots, Perry shoots from a closer distance on average, but so do many of the non-front of the net players that get paid more and some less than Ryan. There are more precise metrics than goals.
But there’s also the Jonathan Cheechoo is currently getting paid for a Rocket Richard season courtesy of Joe Thornton arguments, and I want those in here, too. There are comparison problems with ducksoup’s list. Many of the players he listed play between one and three minutes more than Ryan, some of that time shorthanded, some of that time on deep deep teams with established secondary scoring, and some on Cap teams i.e. not budget teams whose pay structure is— and SHOULD BE — completely different from Anaheim. Everything should be in a civilized tone here, but nothing should be off limits, no one above reproach
woops, had to edit, accidentally typed off topic twice instead of off limits. weird.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 11, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I’ve never had this rude of a conversation with a complete stranger.
Somebody hasn’t been on the internet very long.
That asshole that does the news thinks he's smarter than me.
Lets be honest here Nate can be a lot worse. No offence Nate. If he thinks this is rude then um………. I don’t know what to say.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 11, 2010 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
In all honesty though, was I out of line?
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
I didn’t think so. It was fairly civil the way I saw it. That is the problem with blogs though. Sometimes the tone cannot be detected by the reader which changes the context of the statement completely. Hell I have had some debates with Robby, Arthur and Albert and I would still buy them a beer if I ran into them. I don’t see the reason why someone would be so upset at the above conversation as to leave the site. Even if the debate upset the other reader I think (I’m not speaking for Arthur but this is the feeling that I get around here) that Anaheim Calling is a place where all Ducks fans (and the occasional opponent that wanders into our pond) can share their views on our beloved hockey team. Occasionally that will lead to a debate since not all hockey or Ducks fans have the same viewpoint. Hell this whole place was started by Arthur and Daniel debating with each other. As long as there are no personal attacks, a healthy debate is good for the place. Just my two cents.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 11, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
The reason why I’m on this site so often is because I enjoy reading and engaging in debates like this. It helps me gain perspective on the Ducks and I learn plenty.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
I’ve debated a couple times with him. Mostly about Randy, but he’s always civil with his arguments and we agree on the majority of other topics
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
I actually find him very condescending, and frankly, wrong more often than not. It’s one thing to speak sarcastically and be dismissive of people’s opinions, but he also attempts to speak as an instructive authority, which doesn’t work with how often he’s wrong. He and I have only had one run-in, but it was his attempt to correct me on the RFA compensation scale, something he clearly didn’t understand as it clearly states the scale will increase year to year and he pasted every portion of the relevant paragraph except for that. I could see someone being ‘done with that website’ because of him.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 12, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh, I don’t think anyone should be ‘done with a website’ because of a person who comments on the articles. Doesn’t make much sense to me.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
well, again, it depends on expectations. If the guy wanted a place where every time he said Ryan’s great, ten people would engage him and come up with new reasons he never even considered that illustrate why Ryan is the best thing since sliced-bread, then of course this site will fall pretty far from his expectations.
On the thing with backcheck I noted above, the guy apologized and everything, but I don’t expect to go to a website and have to spend my time correcting someone who is fallaciously correcting me, so I don’t hang out there. It would be like hanging out with someone who says things like, “It’s pronounced BRU-SHETTA” or “Hitler happened in World War ONE” all the time. Talking to backcheck would just add to my workload for the day. Maybe ducksoup just wanted to hear a ‘here, here’ or ‘huzzah’ for Ryan or to have me rise up against you as a naysayer. I’m sure he’ll find that elsewhere.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 12, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Well i think that lies with the reader. If the reader has outrageous expectations then he or she is bound for disappointment.
As far as the thing with backcheck, I don’t see why you would be done with the site (not to say you are) because of a commenter. It’s really simple to just ignore a certain commenter that gets on your nerves or that you simply don’t like. To me, it’s just rather foolish to ‘be done with a site’ because of someone that comments on the articles.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
well, I assume ducksoup was looking for a place to talk to like-minded Ducks fans. And there are certainly fans that get together and just agree with each other about sports with no substantive discussion. The guy’s an older guy, he coaches youth hockey he said, so maybe he just wants to relax and have people nod at him. Nothing wrong with that. This just isn’t the place for him.
And I certainly agree that you can ignore someone; I say it here about Albert all the time. It’s really up to you how much you care what someone on a message board thinks about you. But there’s a point where it’s unhealthy. And if ducksoup were ignoring you and you were constantly butting-in to his replies with other people and contradicting him, I would most certainly ask you to leave the guy alone. This situation was the opposite; he was interjecting on your conversation, so I saw no reason for him to be upset. On the OC Register comments, backhceck purports to be the moderator or a welcome commenter on the message board. He very much seeks to reply to every single comment, even if you’re speaking directly to Stephens or Zupke or whomever. He totally IS the guy who says “it’s pronounced BRU-SHETTA” only he has an erroneous pronunciation for a word in every single sentence you are saying. That makes it tough to comment there.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 12, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
On the contrary, I think it’s rather amusing.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
Eh it is what it is. Nothing you can do about it. Now, who ready for some more Bobby talk?
by Newport Rebel on Jul 12, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess it’s a matter of expectations. I see a lot of rude and dismissive condescension on the OC Register comments, so if someone took their ball and went home after a week of commenting there, I would totally understand it. We’re certainly not the worst in terms of that, but he interjected his disagreement in a note between you and Daniel, so I think the onus is really on him to explain himself. I’m not sure what it would have taken for him to not be done with this website, but if he was looking for rec’s and +1’s before this was the site for him, then this was inevitable. If you interject with a stern tone of disagreement, someone should be allowed to respond with a stern tone of disagreement.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 11, 2010 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Sign Silver!
The Ducks need to sign Ryan before this goes on much longer or it will create some irrepairable hard feelings on both sides and lead to Bobby bolting for another team whenever he does become an UFA depending on the length of the contract he eventually signs.
Perhaps the Ducks need to get creative and change their offer to fewer years with a team and/or player option for an additional year? Or sign Kariya and let him buy #9 back from Bobby for a million or so, you know, whatever spare change Paul has left over from his first stint with the Ducks!
I know Murray doesn’t want to have Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan (and Lupul) all come up as UFA’s in the same offseason in 2013 since that would probably make it impossible to re-sign all of them depending on where the salary cap is in 3 years.
No options are allowed in NHL contracts. Bobby is playing hardball with Murray. Murray cannot let Bobby fall to the Getzy Perry contract year. Then that will be too many components up in the air at once and could lead to disaster for the forwards at that time. If Murray does offer it and Bobby takes it, be prepared for a trade or two in the final year of the contract.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 11, 2010 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, then load his contract up with options based on goals, assists, points, games played, etc. to boost the overall value closer to Getzlaf and Perry. The Ducks cannot afford to lose Bobby to an offer sheet ala Penner and they also cannot allow themselves to face the prospect of having their 3 best young forwards all become UFA’s at the same time. I don’t envy Murray’s job when it comes to keeping under the salary cap, especially if it goes down in the next CBA.
Well you don’t have to worry about losing him to an offer sheet. Murray has been very clear that he’ll match any offer sheet for Ryan, unless it’s outrageous I suppose.
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
I still contend that losing him wouldn’t be the worst thing, as long as it brings us some legitimate assets. Bobby is pretty one dimensional in terms of what he brings to the table. Good teams can always find goal scoring, either by employing an effective system or getting other guys to step up. Honestly, I’m not sure I can see a scenario where Bobby doesn’t leave. It could be this summer in a trade, or it could be in 4 years as a UFA. I don’t know what it is, but I have a feeling he doesn’t want to play Silver to Getzlaf’s Gold for his whole career.
and it’s most likely perry and getzlaf won’t be with us for the remainder of their careers daniel…. most players don’t stay with the same team forever even franchise ones like getzlaf…
The dynamic of that is changing in the new NHL. When Getzlaf and Perry go UFA, I bet they get really long contracts. Teams are holding onto stars with longer deals at good cap hits. The new CBA might change this, but for now teams look ready to keep their stars and control their departure via trades in twilight years or when the cap expedites the process. Bobby will leave before Getzlaf does. I can almost guarantee it.
You know I would really like to see Getzy and Perry retire here. I know the chances are slim but one can still hope.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 12, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh and as for Bobby leaving before Getzy? Thats why they call him silver.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 12, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure if you’ve seen this, but looks like the Blues folks like your Bobby.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
haha, he got the compensation package wrong, but if they go for 6.3 million and two first round draft picks, I think the ducks take the compensation. Anything below that will probably get matched, and Murray has been pretty public with the pricing, so I think they know that.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 13, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
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