Bobby For Three Years Explained?
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 9, 2010 5:29 PM PDT
in Armchair GM
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PrintARTHUR:
In breaking down the Bobby Ryan contract negotiations, I've been particularly resistant to repeating the assertion that Ryan's side has lobbied for a three-year deal. First, because the first appearance of the news came from Bob McKenzie's Twitter, second because Bobby was on record talking about a deal taking him to UFA status and third because the Ducks had formally released their numbers and to juxtapose "three-years" to "five-years" would imply that the former was Bobby's official position as the latter was clearly Anaheim's official position.
However, with Murray stating he plans to go "in a different way" on Ryan negotiations in the next couple of days, Eric Stephens stated rather plainly that Ryan is an RFA looking for no more than three years. No new quotes were offered, but I suppose this could be an off the record thing that has become common knowledge. How does a three-year deal achieve Bobby's wishes for UFA? Stephens explains thusly:
It is believed that Ryan’s camp is of the opinion that the winger can earn more than that $5 million if he were to be free and arbitration eligible in the summer of 2013.
So that's the game according to Stephens. Not just to get to UFA on schedule, but to go to arbitration in the last year guaranteed a payday, even if it comes from a begrudging Ducks team or results in a sign and trade. Perhaps the best scenario being that the Ducks are forced to walk away and leave Ryan a UFA one year ahead of schedule.
Ironically, I've seen a juxtaposition of Kariya and Ryan on a few comment boards, probably tied to what would happen to the number 9 if they find themselves teammates. Plenty of fans point to Kariya taking less money in Colorado as evidence of his evil, and it's not clear to me how many of them are aware that Kariya taking less than the league average was about achieving UFA status before the age of 31, a CBA loophole not all that different from the one Ryan is allegedly playing here. If Kariya is the devil for that, where do they rank Bobby for not even wanting to wait until he's 27 to leave Southern California?
Again, though, this position hasn't been formally attributed to Ryan. He hasn't publicly lobbied for it, despite playing a game of full court press early in negotiations. But it's worth noting that three years is a good business decision for Ryan, the nice, outgoing fan-favorite that the Orange County faithful have recently deified, just as taking one year below the league average was a good business decision for the introverted and tunnel-visioned Kariya, whom the Orange County faithful have since vilified. And, to me, that says that the siren's song of Unrestricted Free Agency does not test the moral mettle of hockey players as much as it exposes the weaknesses of teams that need the salary cap to maintain a competitive payscale.
Though, I suppose, heroes and villains are much more convenient.
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Hey if it lets us keep
him for three years then I’m all for it. It also buys the team a little time to decide which of their precious three are the most valuable and which should be let go. After all, it’s certainly conceivable that any of Getz, Perry, or Bobby could be extended over the next three years as they reach their hockey maturity.
by PhantomPretender on Aug 9, 2010 5:36 PM PDT reply actions
A guy who REALLY wants to get paid will never stay with the Ducks. Because even if they pay him (*cough*Giguere*cough*), they’ll be looking for the back door to move him. Choosing Getzlaf probably puts both Ryan and Perry out.
Maybe Bobby will come back once he’s made his money. Then you and Daniel will understand each other a little better. Haha.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 9, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I can never understand Daniel.
He’s a Dodger fan, after all :-)
Seriously though, I don’t see it as a foregone conclusion that Getz is the one to keep out of the three. I know that centers are inherently more valuable than wingers, but in the 18 months I’ve been watching the Ducks (small sample size, I totally admit), he has been less than consistent. In fact, one of the reasons why I do have such a man crush on Bobby is that I legitimately feel he’s been the best forward we’ve had during that stretch of time.
I fully admit that I haven’t seen Getz and Perry as long as everyone else and I’m not even saying right now that I value Bobby more than them. I just think keeping all three of them as long as contractually possible is the best way to evaluate which of them will be the better franchise player. Again, people seem to believe it’s a foregone conclusion that Getz will be the one to keep. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be, but I don’t think there’s any harm in giving it two more years before making the decision.
by PhantomPretender on Aug 9, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Bobby won’t get the most money as long as he’s in Anaheim. That is clearly a problem for him. Either way you look at it, his ultimate goal is to drive his price up as high as possible as soon as possible. I think that’s a pretty big red flag that he wants out. It seems the same as Kariya, but it feels different. I remember when Kariya held out I was influenced by my father saying he should be happy that he plays a game for a living and should appreciate the few millions he gets, but also thinking that they should give Kariya whatever he wanted. I felt Kariya was somehow worth the money. When he left, I remember being pissed at Anaheim for voiding the contract in the first place.
I just don’t feel that way about Bobby. I have a gut feeling about it. Can’t explain it. Maybe I’ll be wrong, but I think the Ducks should ship him off for D.
And I have that gut feeling that you had for Kariya
I’m not saying pay him whatever the hell he wants because that’s completely irresponsible. I am saying that I think he’s under-appreciated to a degree by some people here who were able to fall for Getz and Perry in 07.
Look, if I had been a Ducks fan longer than I have been, I might completely agree with you. All I can go off is my own interpretations of what’s happened since I have been a fan. And over that stretch of time, I’ve felt that Bobby single-handedly can dominate. Maybe it’s because he’s a goal scorer and as a new fan, it’s easier for me to see what he contributes as opposed to appreciating all the little things (subtle just doesn’t seem like it could ever apply to Getzlaf) that Bobby does.
And yeah, if it ends up being about getting the most money, then he probably is gone. But there’s no guarantee that the same won’t also be true of Perry and Getz.
by PhantomPretender on Aug 9, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
My main response to you would pretty much be the same thing Arthur said underneath. He and I had this discussion a little while ago. Fans tend to fall in love with goal scorers because it’s one of the most obvious contributions. Think about it, pitching wins championships, but people tend to be fans of the big home run hitters, as well as a few dominant pitchers. QB’s fling TD passes, and their offensive lines go almost forgotten to the casual fan. I stand by what I’ve been saying from the beginning; Bobby Ryan is a scorer and nothing else. It looks sexy as hell, but the substance just isn’t there.
Getzy looks pretty sexy when he feels he has to score. He has an inner Mario Lemieux, and if he’d just leave it on, we’d owe him all the money in the till.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 9, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Getzy looks pretty sexy
How weird of me to agree with Arthur (?) on this…
It’s obvious that my position is that I’d take Getzy over BR any day. I love me some Bobby but he’s prone to being streaky and tends to even be moody with his play when he doesn’t agree with the coach.
By the time we get to the three years and we have to decided between the Triplets, we’re going to be rebuilding (gasp!). Throw the money at Getz and build around him.
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Writer for http://www.anaheimcalling.com
I really wonder what we could get for Bobby Ryan if Murray announced he was available. We’ve been speculating around here for a while. When it comes to hypothetical situations I try to be a little conservative. I think a lot of us would be surprised at what would be available if we made an announcement like this. We’d here from Philly, NJ, Pitt, Mtl, Tor, and NYR, and that’s just the list off the top of my head. At this stage of the offseason we might set off a bidding war of epic proportions.
Sidenote: I think someone on a message board somewhere said it would be funny to trade Bobby Ryan for Dustin Penner. Gotta say, wouldn’t be opposed to it. I’ll go a step further: Penner, Souray and a first rounder for Bobby Ryan and Jason Blake. That just sounds like good times. PPG line is reunited and Lupul anchors a third line with Bonino and Beleseky or Sexton.
If you watch Getzlaf’s line against the defensive lines in the NHL, back when Carlyle didn’t match him up against the top lines, it’s pretty insane. As far as I’m concerned, we’re talking about whether or not you keep Joe Thornton or Devin Setoguchi. Even if Setoguchi had as good a year last year as he did the year before, Thornton does more, and the moment Setoguchi falls off his offensive abilities, you start suspecting him of Cheechoo-hood and talking about how worthless he is. Bobby hits a slump and it’ll be that same discussion. It’s like Selanne says, goal scoring is like ketchup out of the bottle. Really, there’s not a lot of science to it, and there isn’t a lot of forgiveness and understanding when it stops flowing. What Getzlaf can do, even without putting the puck in the back of the net is pretty insane, though. And he makes people around him better when he’s on. Whether he can adapt to his new position on the team and stay healthy, who knows, but he won’t be subject to the slump discussion.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 9, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
that’s how you know he’s Hulking out. Penalties make Hulk strong. Unless the other guy dove, then Getzy just gets frustrated. But assuming it was an intentional penalty, he gets out of the box and scores.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 9, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
He did it to Mathieu Garon and the Blue Jackets in March. After an intentional penalty and a fight, he got out of the box and created two goals. We still lost, but you get the feeling that the matchups were getting to him, having to go against skill players who don’t really fight back and what not.
There were games and entire playoff series in the past where he was juiced from the opening faceoff, though. I love it against the Sharks, because those guys are skill players, but they get it in their heads that they have to be tough with us. But the way to beat Getzlaf is not to engage him. Pull a Franzen and dive on him if he even touches you. If you Kronwall him, you’re just waking a sleeping giant, sometimes literally.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
the way to beat Getzlaf is not to engage him
that’s been true since Juniors, by the way. The book on Getzlaf is not an ever-evolving one. We may not have interviewed him before we drafted him, but there aren’t much by way of surprises with Getzlaf. If you can deliver him a physical game that gets him involved, he’ll deliver you a superstar.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Everyone is angry at PK, but the Ducks voided his contract first (after bringing them to game 7 of the SCF). He said he would retire a duck. Just because he didn’t say with Anaheim doesn’t mean he won’t still retire a duck.
Ryan, Defense or UFA goalie??
No reason Ryan can’t be signed, question is, is that the most glaring need, Murray thinks so, so it should happen this week…
If he didn’t think we would be ok on D he would be more focused, than just “looking for one more vet maybe” My point is he should be, because our D at this point is still not the strongest, and if the youngsters are gonna play, fine, nobody had been talking at all this off season about Hiller, Hiller is amazing, but if he goes down, how comfy are you with McIlhenney?? Some pretty good vets for a backup out there for cheap, (read Turco) just saying, I like Mac, just don;t know if I am cool him going all season if the groin problems return
actually Turco’s already signed. I don’t know if Murray is going to go exactly the way Bobby wants. If a guy wants to get out of Anaheim even before his four years are up, then I think you have to consider trading that guy for four years of someone else’s RFA. It’s only at that point that I think acquiring new D comes into focus because you put Ryan in play as a bargaining chip. I don’t know how easy acquiring D is without that.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Question
If a guy wants to get to ufa does that necessarily mean he wants out? I’m not trying to be snarky, this is a legit question. To me, it means a guy wants to be paid, it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s bolting for the door
by PhantomPretender on Aug 10, 2010 12:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
A team like Anaheim will never be able to pay a top flight player market price for his best years while simultaneously being a playoff team, not unless there’s a rock bottom cap. So Ryan saying he wants to be a UFA is about getting to a place like New York or Toronto where paying the player is never a problem.
I sympathized with Kariya a little bit when the RFA system ended at 31. Kariya was a guy who was ridiculously committed to improving his game, had a business mind and a careerist attitude. I mean, if a guy spends every waking moment thinking about being a professional hockey player and one of the best professional hockey players, he deserves to get paid. Problem is, the Ducks were paying him and icing a bad team because of it, so it became a double-edged sword. I don’t know if Bobby is cut from that same mold as he had conditioning problems and focus problems after he was drafted. Maybe he’s just arriving at the business angle now. But with a guy like Fowler, we’ll definitely be playing this same game, where his thoughts on where his career is going don’t really see eye to eye with a small market team.
Again, though, after these guys make their money, maybe they’ll come back. That’s what I was talking about with you seeing eye to eye with Daniel. After Bobby gets his pay day, maybe he’ll spend his twilight years here, you never know. But he won’t get paid in his prime in Anaheim, so the arbitration parlayed into UFA is ABSOLUTELY an escape hatch. If he were drafted by New York or Toronto, you’d call it a bargaining chip. With us, definitely an escape hatch.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
if a guy spends every waking moment thinking about being a professional hockey player and one of the best professional hockey players, he deserves to get paid
I don’t know if that’s a popular opinion, but that’s the drama of the Olympics, isn’t it? Figure skaters and other athletes who sacrifice their childhoods and normal lives to achieve something. Your heart goes out to them when they fail. It isn’t some hobby or even their profession. It IS their lives. I don’t know if Bobby’s that guy, but many many Top 5 picks are, and you can’t fault them for wanting to make the money their talent promises.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Hiller was not amazing. In fact he was average most of the season. Great during the Olympics. Horribly inconsistent for the Ducks. Now you can blame part of that on the stupid goaltender shuffling that was done to increase Jiggys trade value or the departure of Pronger and Beauchemin coupled with the shoddy play of Whitney, Wiz, and Eminger but nonetheless he was not anywhere near stellar last season.
He was actually horribly inconsistent during teh Olympics, too. He followed up a game against Canada with a horrible effort where he was fighting off the puck. HIller’s always been inconsistent and relies on giving the glove side and taking it away far too often. But he’s still adjusting to the long NHL season, so I don’t see last season as a unique indictment of his abilities.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I was trying not to be so pessimistic. I like the guy but feel he is ridiculously overratd by the media.
He’s an athletic goaltender, and is thus flashier than an Allaire goaltender. So, he makes exciting saves. I don’t think anyone has tried to depict him as impenetrable, just capable of difficult saves that a positional goaltender can’t always get to. And that’s true. His glove is exponentially faster than Giguere’s, such that Hiller is willing to offer an entire side of the net, hoping to force the shooter there and get to the puck in time. Hasek played the same game with his five-hole. That doesn’t make either of them bad or overrated, just different from pure positional goaltenders.
And everyone out West is over or under rated by the media. They don’t watch our games.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
They say exciting saves are nice, but if the goalie was in the proper position in the first place, not required.
This hybrid style can only be played by the most athletic goalies like Arthur says, they can have amazing mind blowing games and then follow them up with stinkers.
But Hiller is still getting better, and he is damn good. He has always been suspect on the second game of back to backs. i would not mind using a combo to save that guy for the playoffs though (if we make it\) he seems to really step it up when he wants to. and Jiggy was flat out aweful when he left.
Well in fairness to Jiggy we really left him hanging last year. Post lockout the Ducks had a deep and skilled D for Jiggy to have in front of him. Last year we throw Wiz, Whit, and Boynton in front of him and look what happened. Yeah he also did not play like the Jiggy we were used to but I think a lot of it was the d as well.
by Newport Rebel on Aug 11, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
So what you are saying is Hiller will again suck in NHL 11.
by Newport Rebel on Aug 10, 2010 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
haha. he did get beat in that opening video, though I think they only used him because Toews is a lefty and they wanted him to go forehand gloveside.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 11, 2010 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions
EJ Hradek says Kariya hasn’t decided whether to return or not so I guess it’s a waiting game. I also think adding another D-man is key but then there would be no room for Fowler and what if he turns out to be the next Doughty? So we are in a real pickle with the D
I got a pickle. I got a pickle. I got a pickle, hey, hey, hey, hey!
There's nothing to see here. And nothing gazes back at me.
/does buckwheat double take
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Aug 10, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
and what if he turns out to be the next Doughty
what if we traded the Kings Ryan and a pick for the real Doughty and had them both.
ahhhh
Well, I’m pretty sure Gardiner is already 20, so unless he makes the team this year and gets nominated for the Norris, which will be hard to do at Wisconsin, I’m pretty sure it won’t happen. You have a case with Fowler, but not much of one. So far, he’s been touted as more of an offensive defenseman. His physicality, has been questioned. Not something that’s going to help him crack our lineup. More importantly, if Bobby Ryan was in this deal then there’s no way the Kings get Fowler AND Gardiner.
Doughty has proven he can be a dominant, top-pair defender in the NHL. Fowler and Gardiner have not. If the Kings called and offered Doughty for Bobby and Fowler, and a first rounder, I might think about for 10 seconds, and try to offer a second round pick instead.
+3
I didn’t actually bother reading anything, but I hate being left out and want to be included.
Rice is great when you're hungry and you want 2000 of something.
I think I know the real reason why you want to marry Salma Hayek.
I’ve always thought it was uncanny.
by Wooster11 on Aug 11, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that’s not the best picture. I was rushing to find something. But I’ve always seen the resemblance and even confirmed it with my wife. But it’s OK to hide your man crush. I’m sure it’s because of that crush, you’re able to see the nuances of Selanne and can easily see how he doesn’t resemble Hayek.
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