Paul, Are You There? It's Me, Daniel
by Daniel AC on Jan 27, 2011 11:36 AM PST
in Pond of Honor
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PrintDANIEL:
I know it's been a minute, Paul, but The Hockey News' Rory Boylen's musings about the return of Peter Forsberg got me wondering what you've been up to. I remember you saying you'd like to take a year off to rest from concussion symptoms. I also know that your time in Anaheim is primarily responsible for your time now. Who could forget this cheap shot from Chicago's Gary Suter that went unavenged. I wanted to take this time to apologize for all the undeserved treatment you've gotten since you left. However, Arthur has done good work trying to stand by the facts of the situation. I'd like to take this opportunity to convince you to come back.
Let's face it Paul, the Ducks need you right now. People will point to the recent success and the pending return of Getzlaf as a sign that we are in good shape heading down the stretch. However, I have serious doubts about our second line. It's a definite that Selanne and Koivu play well together and are having solid seasons. Koivu needs 23 points in his last 30 games to reach that 50 point plateau, not good odds, but he's been so valuable as a leader that his secondary scoring has been, well, secondary to his other more invaluable contributions.
My real concern is Jason Blake. He seems to think he can put the puck through the goalie's chest. I've never seen it work, but maybe he'll make it happen eventually. Anaheim fans love him because he skates hard and goes into the corners, but he takes shots when he should move the puck to one of his linemates. Worse, he refuses to put the puck into the pads. If you're on the ice with a good finisher, why not use your shot to create rebounds?
It's not that Blake hasn't been good on that line, it's that the line can't reach it's full potential with him on it. Blake is the Steve Rucchin of this line. Yes, he contributes and does good work in the corners. If he could do that and be more creative with the puck, like Koivu, this line would be terrifying. You know who could do that, Paul? You. Blake would be fine on the fourth line, and Sexton should be logging 17 minutes a night in the AHL instead of 5 here.
I know you still have that frightening backhand, and deceptively heavy shot. I know you and Selanne are still best friends and will be able to find each other all over the ice. I'm not going to say you owe it to a generation of Anaheim fans who don't remember all of this. I will say that the NHL would love to see the return of the most dynamic scoring tandem post Gretzky-Kurri.
It was fantastic hockey. It was fun to watch, and it kept us on the edge of our seats for too few years. If I said that you and a top 4 defenseman were the only thing between the Ducks and a magical playoff run, would you come back? A new generation of Ducks fans is waiting for you to come back and wipe clean the past. It's been almost 8 years since you left. We're ready to welcome you back and apologize. All will be forgiven and forgotten after that first charge through the neutral zone, after that first unbelievable pass, after that first goal celebration with your nonchalant fist pump. Anaheim is where you belong. It will be the story of the year. I know you have the legs and after all this time off, your head has to be feeling better. The rest was good for you. Kariya to Selanne is a phrase that too few Ducks fans remember. Please Paul, consider coming back home.
Finally, I'd like to say I'm sorry. When Selanne came back after the lockout, no questions were asked. Anaheim fans never asked the most obvious question: Who influenced whom? Selanne, too, chose to sign a contract that said Avalanche. The history somehow read that the evil Paul defected and took Teemu with him, treating it like a kidnapping. We should have at least entertained the idea that you went to play with your best friend in Colorado, or that you are both grown men that evaluated actual offers and strategies for the impending lockout.
The reasons don't matter anymore. It sounds ridiculously sentimental, but I enjoyed hockey before Selanne came to Anaheim and the time you two played together made me realize how special the game really was. As a selfish fan, I want to see that again. Selanne's legs can't hold up forever. There's time for you to come back this season and influence this team. You can give Selanne a great memory before he hangs them up, or maybe convince him he has one more year in those legs. Anaheim needs to have those times burned into their memory. It was the most exciting hockey the Ponda Center ever saw. If this didn't convince you, I still want to take the time to say thank you. Disney put you through hell, but you still played hard. You made a ridiculous franchise respectable. You should come back and let it say 'thank you,' the right way.
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DO. NOT. WANT.
I’m from the old generation of Duck fans, and I have an idea about what Kariya can wipe, but I’ll leave that to your imagination.
Leaving aside the baggage for a minute, he’s an aging, fragile winger who doesn’t play defense and doesn’t do any work along the boards. He put up 43 points in 75 games last season, which isn’t too far off from what Blake can do (who knows, maybe one of these days a puck WILL go through the goalie’s chest). I completely agree with you about Blake, by the way, but I don’t think Kariya is much of an upgrade, if at all. I remember the magic too. It happened when these guys were 10 years younger. Expecting it to happen against seems…optimistic to me.
As for the baggage, it would have been one thing to have signed a free agent contract with the Avs. Hey, it was his right to do so. But the fact that he promised Anaheim fans he’d stick around, then reached a verbal agreement with the team (as was reported at the time), would take a slight paycut in order for the Ducks to build on its SC finals roster with him as its centerpiece, and then flip us all the bird while he signed a $1 million deal in Colorado – no thanks. There’s a reason fans STILL boo him when he touches the puck in Anaheim. It’s because the circumstances under which he left the team are a lot more than just an adult making a decision to play with his best friend. He made some other choices along the way that burned the bridge back to Anaheim.
Hockey reasons, emotional reasons – the league is better with PK playing, but I’m not interested in him doing that in Anaheim.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
(as was reported at the time)
Gorbachev5 is new here, so I would encourage everyone to just ignore and not rehash anything. I’m sure Randy Youngman got thousands of letters bashing Kariya and “quoting” Youngman’s own stories to him before he called out his readers. I don’t intend to have less patience with anyone here.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
I’m unaware of what you’re referring to. And even if those rumors aren’t true (is there anything to back that up?), he made statements to the fans that he would be back. And he wasn’t. That’s enough for me.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Daniel links an article above, and I’ve written about it ad nauseam. I’m not really interested in evangelizing it, though. I’ve pointed to the truth enough times where I don’t really care if anyone reads it or not.
People want to believe whatever they want to believe when it comes to Kariya, and people who actually remember it— even reporters pointing out they are being misquoted by the fans —can’t really affect that belief. In cases like that, I’d rather everyone ignored each other than start a flame war over something that will be more about emotion than the actual facts.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
Again, fair points, although unbalanced. You seem much more willing to take the Kariya/Baizley side of the issue than Murray/Ducks organization. You also completely ignore his statement to fans at the rally that he’d be back. A throwaway line? Maybe for him. But not for fans who had just gotten their first taste of real success and were hungry for more. In short, it doesn’t take anything revisionist for me (or anyone else) to dislike the way he left and hold that against him.
And, again, all of that is secondary. As a hockey player, he’s just not that impressive any more. The comparison to Peter Forsberg is apt – he played well when he was in the lineup, but he wasn’t in the lineup all that often.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Listen, I appreciate that you went back to read everything, but let me be absolutely clear that I have NO interest in convincing you of anything and NO interest in discussing this with you. I’m sorry, but my reaction to you is no different from Youngman’s reaction to that fan letter after I read this:
then reached a verbal agreement with the team (as was reported at the time), would take a slight paycut in order for the Ducks to build on its SC finals roster with him as its centerpiece, and then flip us all the bird while he signed a $1 million deal in Colorado – no thanks.That’s just dripping with misinformation. I have no interest in discussing things with someone who believes that or has gotten all riled up from believing that.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
I retract the “reached a verbal agreemnt with the team (as was reported at the time).” That was misinformation, and I apologize for bringing it up. Clearly there are no facts to support that statement.
Setting that aside, and looking only at the facts of the situation, Kariya still left the organization for WAY less money (a risky proposition, considering the looming labor dispute), after he said he would stay. That’s enough for me.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I acknowledge that you addressed this to me, and I apologize if there are points you would like me to answer, but as I said above, I have no interest in discussing this with you. I hope you will respect that and let the issue go or address someone who will read your posts and answer you.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 4:54 PM PST up reply actions
I looked at your previous pieces on Kariya and the rumors surrounding him, and you make fair points, although not very balanced. While you may be right about there not being any verbal agreement, per se, the circumstances under which he left still dealt a blow to the organization after he told fans he’d stick around for another Cup run. I also disagree that the team got more from him than he got from them. They made him their captain and the face of the franchise. They were trying to build around him for a sustained run of success when he bolted for less money than Murray claimed he was offering.
I don’t know that there’s a need to continue to boo him. The Ducks made their point when they won the Cup without him. I’m fine with the fans that want to keep booing him, but it is a bit aged at this point. However, I don’t ever want to see his number in the rafters, and I’d rather not see him back in a Ducks jersey.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Well, you offer a wipe to Kariya, so I don’t really think you’re in a ‘fair and balanced’ position to criticize my tone, though in nothing I’ve written have I declared myself a trier of fact. If anything, I point to facts that fans have conveniently ignored then get snarky with them for their willful ignorance. The article Daniel links is pretty even tempered.
In that article, I link Youngman, who points out that he gathered the facts and the fans are misquoting it. He even goes so far as to offer the Director’s Cut and point to how the events were actually quite contrary to the snowballed caricature of his report that the fans have embraced. If you continue to believe that the 1 Million dollar contract was a middle finger and not about the CBA loophole to UFA status, then there’s really no point at which I’ll feel we’re having anything but an emotional discussion about this topic. For that reason, I encourage ignoring each other.
As to measuring what Kariya gave the Ducks versus what they gave him, the guy stayed with the team through major concussions. He just suffered his first concussion outside of a Ducks uniform, and he had to take a season off. There’s no price tag for playing with your kids and not remembering their names.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
Except that’s the price ANY hockey player risks when he puts on a uniform. They play a sport that is high speed and involves collisions. It’s Kariya’s livelihood – of course he’s going to come back and play if he thinks the risk is worth it. I don’t mean that to take anything away from him, but I don’t feel he deserves any extra honor because of it.
Accepting the million dollar offer was essentially a middle finger, figuratively speaking, of course. According to your own post where you lay out the facts, Murray came out and said that he was up front with Paul about the course they were taking . Where I feel you are unbalanced is where you immediately call this into question. Why do you not take Murray at his word? I understand you call into question his negotiation strategy, but that’s no reason to assume the man was lying.
Murray was bringing Paul back for less money in order to sign more pieces to help him out. Paul said no thanks and took WAY less money to play somewhere else, AFTER he said that he would be back. You are free to interpret that in whatever way you want, but it seems to me that Paul didn’t want to play here any longer. It doesn’t take me believing in a fictitious verbal agreement to come to that conclusion.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I acknowledge that you addressed this to me, and I apologize if there are points you would like me to answer, but as I said above, I have no interest in discussing this with you. I hope you will respect that and let the issue go or address someone who will read your posts and answer you.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
What is the point of putting up a piece on Paul Kariya then? The baggage involved is obviously relevant to us (us being fans of the team), and this is a fan messageboard. I appreciate you setting the facts straight, and I’ve acknowledged that. Are we not engaging in discussion? Isn’t that the point? Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean we can’t continue the dialogue. I may have been implicitly vulgar in my opening post (for humorous purposes), but I don’t feel I’ve resorted to personal attacks.
There is also the fact that I have, at numerous times, stated that I don’t think it makes sense from a hockey perspective. Those points have not been addressed.
I’m not interested in starting a flame war about anything. I’m interested in engaging in intellectual discussion with other fans. Refusing to engage certainly doesn’t facilitate that.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Your claim that it’s the lire ANY hockey plate pays lead me to believe you didn’t actually watch the Ducks play when Kariya was here. Kariya didn’t suffer routine injuries, see the video I linked to Suter’s hit. Kariya suffered because the Ducks didn’t protect him. That’s a completely different issue.
I guess you read the article, but you missed the part where Kariya informed Murray that if he wasn’t extended an offer, he’d explore his options. Being a UFA is the best bargaining chip, probably to bargain for protection.
The real indication you aren’t scraping engaged in this conversation is that you don’t address the question I pose at the end of my article. Selanne was a grown man who also rejected the Ducks that summer, yet we only hate Kariya. Why do we never consider that Selanne didn’t want to come back and Kariya followed him? Maybe he didn’t want to throw Teemu under the bus, and after we rejected him he felt he couldn’t come back after the lockout like Selanne did.
by Daniel AC on Jan 27, 2011 5:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
No player who suffers a concussion suffers a routine injury. It’s not like every player gets concussed. But it is a real risk. And it’s a real risk because there are player out there (including Scott Stevens) who play on the edge, and sometimes cross the line of what is an acceptable check. That happens EVEN NOW. Even on teams where the stars are adequately protected by paid muscle. Even when the NHL slaps suspensions down. I think protection is made out as more important than it is, even back then. You think a goon sitting on the bench would make Scott Stevens think twice about delivering a headshot? Probably not.
Paul Kariya getting back on the ice after that Stevens hit is one of the best moments in Ducks history. Third, in my mind, behind winning the Cup, behind Giguere weeping as he accepted the Conn Smythe. He was a fantastic player. And he contributed a lot to the organization. But the organization treated him like the superstar he was, and when they tried to take a smarter approach to building sustainable success (which involved reducing his salary so they could sign help), he left.
Yes, he informed Murray about his intentions. But Murray was also told that he would get a chance to counter-offer, which never happened.
Selanne was traded away. He didn’t leave after he helped the organization get to its first SC Finals and then tell the fans he’d be back. He wasn’t captain of the franchise. He wasn’t the guy the franchise was trying to build a perennial winner around. I have no idea what conversations PK and Selanne had. The circumstances under which Selanne left the organization and Kariya left the organization are VASTLY different. If your contention that Kariya leaving was largely about an early entrace to UFA, and it makes sense that it was, then it would follow that Selanne went along with Kariya, and not the other way around. But either way, it’s pure speculation.
Kariya was an amazing player. Some of my best memories are watching him and Selanne work the power play. Sometimes I thought you could have stuck three cardboard cutouts out there with the two of them and they’d score. Selanne was traded away in a bad deal that set the Ducks back – a deal that was completely out of his control. Kariya lied to the fans and left the team in a huge hole.
The memories of Kariya are great, and I can understand fans who want him back for sentimental reasons. I don’t want him back because I think his value as a player is diminished. And because I hate the way he left the franchise in the lerch.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Yeah, you’re irrational, and I’m also done with you. You completely misconstrued my argument. If Paul was lured away by Selanne then the circumstances under which he left are VASTLY different than what you’re upset about. Kariya played very well for a Nashville team that has never been a huge point producer and then put up Koivu-like points for a St. Louis team that was loaded with young guys. There’s no telling how good he’d be with veteran talent on his line.
Long story short, It’s not irrational to think that Selanne was mad for being traded and wanted Kariya to come with him to Colorado. For all the talk of building around Kariya we didn’t protect him, and yes enforcers work but I’m not getting into that discussion, the franchise constantly tried to paint him as a villain for pursuing market value for his talents. If you want to be bitter about a guy leaving, go ahead. But the facts that created that sentiment are way off base and I’m done trying to convince you.
Wait, wait, how am I irrational? Please point that out. Kariya left the team after leading them to the SC Finals. He said he’d be back. He wasn’t. Murray didn’t give him a qualifying offer, NOT because he wanted Kariya to leave, but because the Ducks were operating on a budget and needed the money to provide him with the help he wanted. I’m not saying anything there that’s not true. And that’s why I don’t like him.
I have no idea who followed whom to Colorado. It doesn’t matter. Was Selanne mad at the organization? It’s possible, and he had a right to be, after being traded away. His actions after the lockout seem to indicate that’s not the case, but maybe it was. I’m not sure why that matters. Kariya still left the team voluntarily while they were trying to build around him as the center of the franchise.
I acknowledge the same facts you do, now that they’ve been laid out for me. To be honest, I didn’t even hear about a “verbal agreement” until a couple years ago. I still thought the way Kariya left was terrible.
As for how good he’d be, I don’t know…he put up 43 points last year. The Blues weren’t great, but they weren’t any worse, scoring wise, than the Ducks are this year. He’s an injury risk at this point of his career, and he’d make Jason Blake completely irrelevant. At least Blake provides a bit of extra scoring now.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I am no longer tormented by all of this. If Teemu says the old (meaning good) PK is still in there somewhere, then great. If he want st come and play for cup wages, (meaning discount) great. I like Blake’s effort, I also wish he would try a corner, any corner when shooting, or like Daniel said, the pads lead to Selanne and Koivu, and an easy assist for Blake, but he always hits the logo….like there is a spell on him. Anyway, bygones are just that, if he still has game, why not try him out, if not, then gets us Jason Arnott on a loaner, and a younger LW that can score, and is over 6 foot 200.
I’d rather see McMillan centering those two, and rather see us spend our asset on a defenseman.
by Daniel AC on Jan 27, 2011 2:18 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I REALLY want to be against Kariya’s return to Anaheim . . . he was the reason I fell in love with the sport and I was crushed when he left. HOWEVER, for sentimental reasons I would like to see him and Teemu play together again.
CALIFORNIA ANGELS . . . ANAHEIM DUCKS . . . CALIFORNIA GOLDEN BEARS
F*** STANFURD.
I would love to see him play also, but I don’t think it would happen, and is there even any rumors of thinking of coming back mid-season. my dream would be for scotty to come back because were in the playoff hunt and he could be the piece that can put us over the top. (I know that is highly unlikely, but i think just as likely as Kariya coming back this season.)
Haha. Deep down, I wonder how much of our Sleek approval was based on Daniel just blatantly calling out Ducks fans.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Plain and simple the reason why I am a Ducks fan is the combo of selanne and kariya. These guys brought us offensive excitement in an era of grind it out defensive hockey. We took the chance on selanne when everyone gave up on him so why not do it with kariya. If he resigned with Anaheim I would be all for it. The real dilemma is does he get number 9 from Ryan?
Damn..
Am I the only one who was hoping Gorbachav5 and Arthur would have engaged in a good debate?
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
Well, first, it’s hard for me to take myself seriously if I’m going to encourage you all not to get into a flame war then I end up in a flame war with the guy. But second, how many times have I broken down my opinion on Kariya? The written record is long enough.
Plus, I envision me explaining why a contract below league average got someone UFA status in an age where 30 year olds were RFA’s after the ‘94 lockout for about the thousandth time. Anything where I’m explaining something to someone I don’t want to be talking to anyways is a flame war waiting to happen.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
And this is what I don’t understand. I am clear on the UFA rules. It doesn’t sway my opinion one bit.
And it doesn’t reflect very well on you as the author of the blog if you’re unwilling to respond to anyone who disagrees with you. I opened with my opinion. You informed me that there was misinformation in my statement. I acknowledged that, and reiterated my point without using the misinformation.
If that’s the type of discourse you are going to discourage, then this isn’t really a community I want to be a part of. I joined here because the posting on the Ducks official message board isn’t always the most engaging. I’ve liked what I’ve seen so far from the authors here. Until this, at least.
Obviously, I wasn’t aware of the blog when your initial pieces about Kariya were posted. I have now brought up some points that I don’t think were addressed in those pieces. It’s not a “flame war” to respond to somebody with a dissenting opinion. It’s just discussion. If you think I’ve been inappropriate in anything I’ve said, please let me know. I’m not trying to offend anyone.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
Uh, I’m going to assume this is an attempt to reply to the above discussion— though I’m sure one of my moderators will alert me if this is something I should actually read —and I’m going to say again as respectfully as anyone can for a third time:
I acknowledge that you addressed this to me, and I apologize if there are points you would like me to answer, but as I said above, I have no interest in discussing this with you. I hope you will respect that and let the issue go or address someone who will read your posts and answer you.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
No, this was in direct response to the statement you just made to Natesaduck above. Your assumption is incorrect.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I get both of your perspectives
But I don’t think this is going anywhere with either of you. So, Gorbachav5, it’s probably a good idea to just stop. Arthur isn’t interested in engaging. And while I understand your frustration in that you want to have a civilized discussion about this subject with someone who doesn’t agree with you, at this point you should just give up. It seems to be something Arthur isn’t interested in discussing anymore because I’m sure he feels that its exhausting to keep presenting his opinion on this subject and have it fall on deaf ears.
Not saying that you have deaf ears, but I’m just trying to get you to understand Arthur’s perspective on the matter.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
That’s the thing, I don’t feel I have deaf ears at all. He pointed out some facts that I hadn’t seen before. I appreciate that and retract the statements I made that were based on bad information.
And again, I’ll point out, it’s a post about Paul Kariya. No Ducks fan can ignore that he is a lightning rod of opinion, whether for or against, and a lot of that opinion revolves around the circumstances under which he left the team. If we didn’t want to have this discussion, then posts about Paul Kariya should be avoided entirely.
I understand he’s tired of it. I disagree with how he’s handled it, that’s all.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
by Gorbachav5 on Jan 27, 2011 7:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And I can respect that. Truly, I can. And you seem mature enough to not take that personally. That’s the kind of person we want here.
Hopefully you don’t waste your entire opinion over at the official message boards. I can’t stand it over there.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
I think the real problem is that the facts don’t really support the hate that people have for Kariya. One of the things that has always separated Arthur and I as fans, and we discuss this frequently, is that we have very different opinions about Ducks players. We hated Wisniewski early on, everyone else seemed to love the guy, for a while. We weren’t sold on Jason Blake, still aren’t, people defend him for his work ethic. I can work hard digging a hole for 6 hours, but that doesn’t mean I’ve accomplished anything.
I’ve always seen the Paul Kariya hate as irrational. Honestly, it reminds me of conversations about immigration. No matter how many fact are out there, people refuse to acknowledge them. In this instance, it’s “so what, I still hate that guy”. People find ways to undermine his contributions and the problems that Disney created for him. The guy should get a medal for all the shit we put him through, but fans never see that. It’s the same tired arguments and irrational hate. As someone who supports and appreciates him, it’s frustrating to read. I don’t understand how you can hate a guy who lays it all on the line for you a decade and then walks away for a chance at a better life. It’s like getting mad at your kids for going to college.
I have heard the facts. I know them. I still dislike Kariya. He left the organization when it was trying to build around him, treat him like the superstar he is. It is not at all like getting mad at my kids for going to college. It’s like getting mad at my kids for going to another family when I’m doing the best I can to give them a good family with me.
It’s hard for me to have sympathy for a guy who was going to get paid in the $6 – 7 million range for playing a game and being made the face of a franchise.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
As a socialist, I have serious problems with the “making X dollars to play a game argument”. Primarily because I see it as capitalist hypocrisy. Athletes don’t get market value or job security for their labor. They essentially have a 10 year window to make a lifetime worth of money. On top of that, they work in multibillion dollar industries and still don’t see their fair share of the revenue. I don’t pay money to see the Samueli’s skate, so why should he get more of my money than Teemu Selanne?
Your continued dislike of Kariya in the face of facts is, I think, childish. If you want to say he was treated like a superstar, you’re lying to yourself. Clowns are a main attraction at a circus, but they aren’t treated well. Kariya did his time in this organization. He gave us everything he had for 9 seasons, and because you don’t like the way he leaves he’s a bad guy? I’m reminded of this exchange between Commodore Norrington and Captain Jack Sparrow
Norrington: One good deed is not enough to save a man from a lifetime of wickedness.
Sparrow: Though it seems enough to condemn him.
Karyia had every right and every reason to go someplace else. He never promised the fans anything, and his reasons for leaving still aren’t clear. I’ve reached the point where I believe that anyone who still hates him is simply being irrational.
I never once said Kariya was a bad guy. I said I disliked the way he left the team, I dislike him as a player. I have no idea whether or not he’s a bad guy. I do know that he left the team I love when he told the fans he’d be back. The team reached out to him, told him of their plans, and he up and left. I don’t think he did right by the team or the team’s fans.
Kariya gave a lot to the organization, and the organization paid him handsomely for it. They paid him when he was hurt. He was paid enough money by the Ducks for a lifetime. He was operating under the collective bargaining agreement that he agreed to be a part of. So was Murray. Let’s leave politics out of this.
As for the childish thing, here we are, two grown men, talking about hockey players on the internet. We root for, as Seinfeld put it, laundry. We root for a hockey team because it’s fun. It’s entertainment. It’s more than a bit childish. I love the Ducks – Kariya left them after they tried to help him get a Cup. He left after he told fans he’d be back. I dislike him for that. Off the ice? He’s might be a great guy. I’d be happy for the opportunity to meet him.
On the ice? I don’t want him back on the team I love after what he did. If the team thought he could help them win more games (and I’m not sure he can at this point in his career), I’d cheer the goals he scored just as much as any other, because he’d be scoring them for the team I love. But I still would dislike the way he left the team.
None of that is irrational. Whereas I understand why you still like him, you refuse to see a different point of view.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
First, everything is political. But I wasn’t talking politics, I was talking economics. I don’t remember Kariya promising he’d be back. I don’t know where you get that information, especially since the reporter who handled this says it’s not true. I digress.
Handsomely is a relative term, because we don’t have skills that are worth millions of dollars. You ignored my point because you probably didn’t like it. Still, it remains, that athletes are poorly compensated when you consider how much revenue they generate. That’s pretty irrefutable. Saying he agreed to the collective bargaining agreement and is therefore not entitled to market value compensation doesn’t make that point go away. If we ignore the political and economic circumstances that drove Kariya to make his decision, then we do a disservice in our efforts to understand the decision. Sorry, politics and economics affects everything we do, even commenting on a blog.
It’s not that I can’t see your point of view. I do see it, and I think it’s irrational. You don’t want Kariya back because you think he disrespected the organization when he left. Nevermind that Kariya spent his entire career unprotected from hits like the one I linked to above. Nevermind, that when he got involved in a contract negotiation he held out to guarantee market value for other players that Disney made him seem greedy and evil. Nevermind that the Ducks never paid for high priced talent that wasn’t Kariy, until they acquired Selanne. After Selanne, they didn’t pursue high priced talent until they got Sykora to replace Selanne. Rucchin should have been a second line center, not a top line center. The organization NEVER paid for that center. The NEVER paid for great D except a couple of power play quarterbacks named Olaussen and Ozolinsh. Sandstrom and Kurri were all but washed up when they played in Anaheim. The 2003 run to the Cup was a miracle. It was all Babcock and Giguere. The Ducks were, for the most part, lucky. Look at the Oilers.
If you’re just mad because the guy left, and consider that departure to be worthy of eternal exile, then yes, I think that’s childish. It’s condemning him for one act. I even gave the cool quotation to exemplify my point. Anaheim NEVER tried to build a winner. Disney always treated this team as a marketing commodity. In the end, Kariya and Selanne were both free agents that summer. To condemn Paul for leaving and forgive Selanne seems irrational. Selanne could just as easily chosen to tell Paul he was making the wrong decision and come back. He didn’t. In that situation it seems wrong to vilify one and sanctify the other. If you want to say that Anaheim was building a winner around Kariya, you are straight lying. Anaheim didn’t pay for serious talent until Burke gave Scott Niedermayer that money. The Ducks paid Kariya, Selanne and maybe one or two other guys each year, but they never built a winner. 2003 was a wonderful accident. You can’t blame a guy who spent 9 years in an organization that refused to pay for talent for wanting to play with some talented guys.
So yes, I see your point, I just don’t think it’s founded on anything except an irrational hate of Kariya. Seeing another point doesn’t mean accepting it. I see why people in Arizona hate Mexicans, but I don’t think they’re right.
I didn’t ignore any of your points, you’ve made them pretty clearly. Sports leagues and their salary structures don’t function anything like any other industry in the US. They are outside the normal economic boundaries. Franchises operate without fear of anti-trust legislation. Owners coerce governments into paying for their arenas by convincing them of mythical economic windfalls. If you think all or any of that is bad or wrong, I don’t necessarily disagree with you. For the most part, I think players in professional sports get an inordinately small piece of the pie they’re helping create. Do I still think they get paid a ridiculously high salary for playing a game? Heck yes. But that’s the system in which they operate and that’s what we’re discussing. If you want to change the rules of the game, that’s a totally different matter. I think the Ducks offer to him would have been fair, given their goals as an organization. There are plenty of examples of players taking less money to allow their franchise to sign additional players.
Anaheim was in the process of trying to build a winner. They had just been to the Stanley Cup Finals for heaven’s sake. Yeah, a lot of that was Giguere getting hot at the right time, but clearly they had at least some of the pieces. The biggest of which was Kariya. Until Kariya left and set them back for what would have been years if it hadn’t been for the signing of Scott Niedermayer (something I’m sure the Ducks hadn’t even considered at the time he was leaving). He lied to the fans at the rally after the finals were over, saying he’d be there to lead the team back. If he wasn’t sure he was going to be back, he should have just kept his mouth shut. That has nothing to do with a verbal agreement, that was just his promise to the fans. When he reneged on it, it hurt, a lot.
That’s my take. I don’t find it irrational at all. I am a fan of the Ducks. When somebody does something to hurt the franchise, I don’t like it. It’s that simple. You don’t think he did anything wrong by acting out of his own self interest. I think that his acting out of his own self interest caused him to be disingenous and ultimately hurt the franchise to which I am loyal. Both viewpoints are valid.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I do think you aren’t listening. Because you’re saying the same thing over and over again, and you ignore key points. Like when I raise new questions about Selanne. If you want to be blinded by your Kariya hate go ahead. But consider this, was the rally before or after Murray told him he was going not going to qualify him for the next season? If he thought he was locked up, of course he’s going to say that. If you invite me to your birthday party and I say yes, but then I get a new job and can’t come, are you going to get mad at me? Again, I think that’s irrational. It’s examining the context from a situation in a singular point of view because you want to be mad.
I like how you keep citing yourself as a fan of the organization, as if someone who supports Kariya, like me, couldn’t be.
As for building a winner, again you’re lying to yourself. There’s no evidence the Ducks would have gone out to get anyone that off season except Selanne. That would have helped the scoring, but there’s no telling if that team could have ridden JIggy like that to the finals again. Those are some Ducks-colored-glasses you’re rocking. Disney always put the bottom line ahead of winning. Mike Babcock and Giguere made a miracle happen. Other than Giguere, Kariya and Ozolinsh there wasn’t much on that team. Steve Thomas was old, so was Oates. Rucchin, who was a great Duck, wasn’t a top line center. Carney was a great stay at home guy, and so was Vishnevski. Sykora provided some scoring that year. Selanne would have simply offset his moving. Again, there’s no evidence in the history of the Disney run franchise, until they signed Fedorov, of seeking and paying top flight talent to build a winner. You’re grasping at straws.
Just because a few players take less money doesn’t mean anything. it’s easier to take less money when the team where you’ve built your career is spending it someplace else. The reason why those guys have to take less money is because they’ve either built a family situation they want to protect, or because the organization is paying enough to other players for said player to believe he has a shot at winning. Neither of those scenarios describe Paul’s situation. Furthermore, saying that a system is somehow just or correct simply because it is in place is a little irresponsible. We shouldn’t passively accept unjust situations just because “it’s the way it is”.
On a sidenote, I’m the author of this particular blog post. As such, Arthur’s desire to not engage in discourse with Gorbachav reflects poorly on me…I guess.
I don't think it does
It’s not as if the two of you are the same person.
He made a choice not to engage. There’s nothing wrong with that. End of story.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
There’s no excuse for it this time. It’s published under your user name and everything. [shakes fist]
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
I wasn’t suggesting you get into a flame war after you encouraged us not to. That would be hypocritical. I know where you stand on the whole Kariya thing and after reading what Gorbachav5 said, I was anticipating a rebuttal from you.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
well, if you can anticipate my response, i say type it out for me :)
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
Hah
Yeah, I’ll do that. Then you’ll get pissed at me for pulling a Spade and misquoting you or something.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
by Natesaduck on Jan 27, 2011 6:51 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hahahahahaha. Okay. That was a good one.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jan 27, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with Gorbachav5, as much as I love Kariya, at this stage of his career I don’t see him as an upgrade to Blake, that line needs a grinder on it anyway. The second line has been the most consistant, why mess with it?
No, the numbers don’t tell how skilled Kariya still was when he was in St. Louis. He was still making very creative plays and his shot is still deadly. Koivu and Selanne do remarkable work in the corners and you’d be surprised what Kariya can do. He did his best work in a pre-lockout league. Even if production is a wash, the chemistry with Selanne and the potential for more creativity and skill makes him a better option than Jason Blake. I’m not pretending this is 100% feasible, but to say Kariya isn’t a better option than Jason Blake just doesn’t compute. He’s better in almost every facet. What you give on “grinding” you get in increased skill and danger. We haven’t even talked about him on the PK, where the upgrade over Blake is even more obvious.
“Blake is the Steve Rucchin of this line. Yes, he contributes and does good work in the corners. If he could do that and be more creative with the puck, like Koivu, this line would be terrifying. You know who could do that, Paul? You.”
Work in the corners? Is there another Paul Kariya I’m not aware of?
Nope, same one, and yes he can do it. People have forgotten how good he was in all the talk about how much they hate him.
He was good. He was VERY good. He is no longer the player he was with the Ducks 8 years ago. His production with the Blues was on a steady decline. He might still be a useful player, but I don’t think he’s better enough than Blake to render Blake completely useless by putting him on the 3rd or 4th line. I also don’t think we could count on him to be healthy.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
When, in his entire career, was he great working in the corners?
And Gorbachev has pretty much covered what I think about Paul. He WAS great. Now, he’s probably not even in the top half of the league in forwards. The only reason I can imagine a Ducks fan wanting him on the team is nostalgia.
Go back and watch the goals highlights at the NHL’s website. I think there are still highlights from last year. Kariya was still a very productive player. Again, it seems odd to me that we calculate Blake’s value regardless of his poor numbers but don’t consider Paul’s offensive creativity a factor beyond the numbers he posted.
Paul was good in the corners when he played here. Of course he was better on the rush, but he made plenty of great plays from the half boards and he could fetch the puck. He used his speed, and as we’ve seen with Selanne, players can keep speed well into their later years. Mostly, I think the Kariya hate is blinding your hockey vision.
Please stop appealing to the Kariya hate when we’re discussing him as a player. His production steadily declined on the Blues the last few seasons. He was hurt two years ago and then hurt a little bit last year, and IIRC part of the reason he decided to sit out this year was related to health. If we signed him, there’s a decent chance he’s not going to stay healthy, and even if he does, he would outproduce Blake by maybe a couple of points the rest of the season?
Something else that hasn’t been brought up is the opportunity cost. Either Beleskey or McMillan, two young players we’re hoping can help the team in a greater capacity next year, would lose valuable development time at the NHL level. I’m assuming Sexton gets sent down when Getzlaf returns (or stays down, since he’s already in Syracuse), and it would be one of those others who would be the odd man out this year. Neither has been great at the NHL level, but I think the experience will help them be more productive next year. They are, hopefully, long term solutions, even if only on the third line. Kariya would be a short term solution in a year where the Ducks are more than just a slight scoring bump away from competing for a Stanley Cup.
He would be an upgrade over Blake. But, in my opinion, not enough of an upgrade to offset the costs.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
I’m not using Kariya hate to discuss him as a player. Again, the decline in points isn’t a strong indicator of the caliber of player he is. Selanne had an awful year in Colorado, took time off to fully heal and came back like he was possessed. I don’t see why Kariya, after some 8 months of downtime, wouldn’t be able to get his body back on track either. They are very comparable situations, and that hasn’t been refuted.
Here’s how I see the lines:
Beleskey-Getzlaf-Perry
Kariya-Koivu-Selanne
Ryan-McMillan-Lupul
Blake-Marchant-Parros.
Notice no Lapierre. He could, and should, center the 4th line, but I don’t see Todd leaving the line up. Would I love to keep Sexton around? Of course, I would. But I don’t think a few minutes a night in the NHL is good for a guy who should be spending time developing his game as a top 6 forward. Sexton needs to work on his puck handling ability. He surrenders too quickly to his shooting instinct and rarely improves his shooting angle. I agree he should be in the long term plans, but the way we are using him isn’t going to help him develop properly. Notice also, that McMillan and Beleskey are still getting good ice time.
I didn’t just think it would be cool. I thought this out. It’s going to work. People should stop doubting me. Kariya has had tons of rest and he’ll be ready to play. You can’t evaluate the guy just on what he did last year on an average St. Louis team. He was probably fighting injuries the whole time. Again, see my analysis on the Selanne situation.
People should stop doubting me.
Somebody is awfully high on their own opinion, eh?
I have thought his out too. Neither of us have any idea really if he’ll be ready to play. He could be sitting on his butt eating potato chips and playing XBox.
I’m using statistical evidence to show that he’s been declining. I’m not evaluating him on just what he did last year, I’m evaluating him on what he’s done the last four years. Four years ago he was still very good, putting up almost a point a game. He got a bit worse the year after, but still a high quality player. Then he hurt himself and missed almost an entire season. He came back from the injury, and unlike Selanne, who came back with a vengeance after rehabbing for a year, Kariya came back to put up the worst season of his career. St. Louis last year was a mediocre offensive team, just like the Ducks are this year. The Kariya and Selanne situations are pretty different.
And again, this isn’t saying Kariya wouldn’t be useful, just not useful enough to justify signing him. Your lineup looks fine, although I’m not sure they would really do that to LaPierre. Maybe, since he hasn’t been producing. Blake is a complete waste on the 4th line similar to how they’re wasting Sexton currently. At least with Blake you’re not worried about stunting his development, but you’re also paying $3 million for a guy to do nothing.
Defending maligned chants since 2009
You say high on opinion, I say fun.
Again, it’s not dissimilar. I’m not sure if you remember what happened to Selanne, but he spent most of his last two years hurt. The season in San Jose and then the Season in Colorado. He said himself that the lockout provided a unique opportunity to get fully healthy. Just because Kariya missed all those games, doesn’t mean he came back fully healthy.
Moreover, as I’ve stated countless times. You can’t judge a player solely on statistics. Again, I don’t see why we value Blake based on a non-statistic like “grinding” but don’t value Kariya for the potential offensive creativity. Kariya is a playmaker, he needs a finisher. If guys aren’t finishing that means his numbers go down. If the St. Louis system isn’t working for offense, guess what, Kariya isn’t going to put up numbers.
I don’t see why Blake is a waste on the 4th line. The biggest asset he provides to the second line is his ability to work in the corners and be a grinder. Guess what 4th lines do. They grind and work in the corners. The guy clearly isn’t a major offensive contributor. Let him grind on the 4th line and score the occasional goal. In the cost benefit scheme you have these scenarios
1) Blake goes to the 4th line and spreads the scoring, although who knows if he can do that without Koivu and Selanne spoon feeding him. Sexton goes Back to the AHL to develop his offensive tool kit, making him a potential permanent fixture in the top 6 or top 9. We get an offensive upgrade on the second line by virtue of adding a more creative player who has better chemistry with that line’s key finisher.
2) Things stay the same, and Blake continues to blow key scoring chances only to get one every 2-3 weeks. Sexton continues to play 5 minutes a night or less, potentially stunting his development as an offensive player.
What it comes down to is this: Adding Kariya has zero downside outside of people not liking him. Even if he isn’t the player he was, he can sit in the press box with his prorated $500,000 contract, and we can go back to the old second line. We could even put him on waivers and bury that tiny contract in the AHL. You have a situation where the reward far outweighs the risks. At this point, if you can’t see that, you are being blinded by your Kariya hate.
I feel that I should point out
The “his contributions don’t show up in the stats argument” has been dismissed before when it’s me talking about bobby.
I’m just saying.
by PhantomPretender on Jan 28, 2011 11:29 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Just saying what? That Blake is overvalued for the work he does, or that Kariya’s contributions outside of his numbers shouldn’t be considered because we have judged Bobby Ryan for wanting beyond his quantifiable value?
:)
Lol
In all seriousness though, I agree that kariya is probably better than blake. If you’re going to shoot as much as he does, at least generate some rebounds.
And for the love of god, stop trying to wrap around or stuff it through the goalie when you have guys wide open in the slot.
by PhantomPretender on Jan 28, 2011 12:43 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It was definitely pretty. I don’t want to say I don’t appreciate what he brings to the table. That’s not my point at all. It’s just that if he did that while playing with Parros and Marchant, I think it would be more valuable to the team. As it stands, I think Blake is standing between Koivu and another 50 point season.
I would totally agree, I was just saying it was pretty. I don’t really understand why Carlyle wont even try anyone else in the position for any length of time. Blake got demoted for like a couple games earlier in the season but other then that the second line hasn’t really seen any changes while the other 3 lines get changed nearly nightly. The one line combination we haven’t seen is Lupul-Getzlaf-Perry and Ryan-Koivu-Selanne. The third line could be Blake-Lapierre-McMillan, let Sexton get some real ice time in the minors. Though that 4th line has looked better with Sexton on it.
Kariya
I’m torn on this. Honestly, what stung the most when Kariya left was that we had just gone to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. I remember reading in the news afterward where he said that he and Teemu were discussing where would be the best place to win a cup and both thought Colorado. After we’d gone all that way, he had such a lack of confidence in the team that he didn’t think Teemu would make the difference? That hurt. A lot.
As it happened, Colorado didn’t do so good that year. On the other hand, neither did the Ducks.
Do I want to see him back in a Ducks uniform? I’m not sure. The sting has gone away from him leaving and I still have fond memories of the glory years. But I’m honestly afraid that he’s too fragile to have much more of a successful career. I’d support Murray, though, if he made it happen. After all Kariya’s done for this franchise, I can’t refuse him a second chance.
"We can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one is filled first"
I would absolutely love to see Kariya Back in a ducks uniform. When I first got into hockey the Ducks were my home team and I have been a fan ever since. I never really understood the dislike for a man making a career path choice. Maybe he felt he had a better chance to win a cup with a team that had a better track record? Isn’t that the goal, to get a cup? In the 9 years that he played with us, how many times did we make the playoffs? I’m not sure and don’t really want to research it but I don’t remember being excited about the playoffs like I am now, maybe I have just grown as a hockey fan? We might also consider that Selanne’s career (his knee) had been on the decline and may have felt it was his last year in the league. He doesn’t have time for a team to build a winner and they have an opportunity to win with a contender together, if you and your best friend saw what could have been your last chance to win the ultimate prize together would you not take it?
As an upgrade of Blake though, I would have agree, I love Blake’s work ethic and energy but what is actually generated from it? Some may argue that he is the unsung hero of that line because he doesn’t get the points but does the hard, and dirty, work really generate much. I think that Koivu could fill the role of the “hard worker” and “grinder.” Part of what makes Koivu so consistent is his hard work.
Honestly my only concern would be the number situation. I like Ryan wearing the #9 but I don’t see him getting to keep it with Kariya back on the team, which of course is no reason not to make this move if it were available.
The Ducks went to the playoffs three times in Kariya’s tenure, 97, 98, 2003. Thanks for your comment, but Arthur and I already talked about Bobby as number 9. Doubt you’d like the outcome of our discussion :)
As much of Ryan fan I am, I am a Ducks fan first. Players have lost their numbers before. it’s not really that big a deal, for either of them for that matter, It’s the name that people remember.
I think the two become synonymous. You can’t talk about Gretzky without thinking of his 99, or Lemeiux and his 66. I think players become linked to their numbers. When Ozolinsh didn’t give up 8, granted Teemu didn’t ask him to, it was a minor issue around here. For the most part, the fans couldn’t understand why he wouldn’t give it to Teemu, it was Teemu’s number. You’re right, it’s not a major issue, but I think it’s still one worth discussing considering how Players become so closely linked to the numbers they wear.
In which case, maybe Kariya wouldn’t ask Ryan to give up the number. He could go with Number 13 in tribute to Selanne (I think that was the number he wore when 8 was taken).
I think he should wear 99.
Hahahahaha
by Daniel AC on Jan 28, 2011 3:17 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
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