It's Deja Vu All Over Again
by Daniel AC on Oct 31, 2011 9:46 AM PDT
in From the Flying V
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DANIEL:
This is Anaheim Calling to the Hockey World. As a Dodgers fan, I'm loathe to title a post after the sayings of a Yankee. Still, the words seem somewhat prophetic to an Anaheim fan base that must be experiencing deja vu. The Ducks have fallen to 5-5-1 after starting the season with a 4-1-0 surge. For those of you playing the at home, the Ducks are 1-4-1 in their last 6. We can call it Jekyll and Hyde, inconsistency, or a huge P value, but the fact remains, the Ducks aren't getting it done.
The biggest reason the Ducks have been struggling is that they simply can't find the back of the net on a consistent basis. Anaheim has potted 21 goals in 11 games for an appalling 1.91 G/G average. To add insult to injury, 15 of those 21 goals have been scored by the big 4 forwards (Teemu Selanne, Ryan Getzlaf, Bobby Ryan, and Corey Perry), and one of them came from a guy, Nate Guenin, who is now playing in Syracuse. It doesn't take an advanced degree to see where I'm going with this. The Ducks have no scoring depth.
Cogliano was supposed to provide offensive depth, but is on pace for his worst offensive season of his career. The Ducks bottom 6 has combined for 9 points; their leading scorer, Selanne, has 10. Despite stretches of very solid play, the bottom 6 hasn't produced. This has, in turn, forced Randy Carlyle to do what he does best, rely too much on the top 2 lines and the PP. When Jason Blake went down, set-off Carlyle's juggling act. The Twins have been channeling their inner Hugh Hefner and using left wings only to never call the next day. This means that the Ducks have been moving forwards all over the depth chart to get the scoring going, but have experienced on overall drought.
This problem can be examined from a couple of angles. First, it's possible that Carlyle doesn't allow his bottom 6 to gel into complete lines, because he doesn't lean on them when the going gets tough. Second, GM Bob Murray can be blamed for never assembling the proper personnel. No matter your preference, it's hard to deny that this is the exact problem that faced the Ducks last year. There are supposed to be more players in the system to solve this problem, but the Ducks seem content to cycle through every player on this roster to find scoring before looking to the likes of Kyle Palmieri, Dan Sexton, Peter Holland and Nicolas Deschamps in Syracuse. No matter the reason, the Ducks haven't had scoring depth for a few seasons now, and we are all becoming familiar with what that means in the standings. As go the scoring whims of the top players, so go the Ducks.
Speaking of the whims of the top players, the Ducks continue to be a team that can't put in consistent stretches of effort. They seem to be a perpetual .500 team that manages to excel in clutch situations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but for the long course of the season, one has to wonder if the stress of an up and down season leaves the tank a little empty for the playoffs. A team that isn't ready to play every night is one that is suffering from a lack of leadership. Simply, the Ducks aren't mentally tough. The make up in the locker room clearly lacks the ability to stay on task. That lack of focus is what leads to the inevitable ups and downs of the season.
Now, before this digresses into me complaining about the many failings of Bob Murray, I'd like to point out that GMs have full power over personnel. All GMs, no matter what team, are in charge of doing the maintenance on the team, making sure the appropriate culture is being cultivated and making sure the proper personnel are available for the coach to operate his system. Whether I agree with all of Murray's moves or not, that doesn't change the fact that he's primarily responsible for the product on the ice. Paul Holmgren proved that a GM can take full control by moving star players, when he shipped out Jeff Carter and Mike Richards. While the practicalities of the salary cap can be a hindrance to moves, there is always a market for quality players.
I'm not saying that Murray should ship out one of the big 3, but I am saying that if leadership is found to be insufficient, these types of moves can be made. A general manager has full authority to make the types of moves that Holmgren did. The Ducks have enabled the erratic behavior of the star players. Murray's empty threats to trade players before he got rid of the coach have demonstrated the the inmates are in fact running the asylum. Culture permeates throughout a locker room and is adopted. It always happens from the top down; be it the GM or the star players. The Ducks now have a culture of inconsistency. The team probably needs a major shake up in locker room chemistry.
I'll let all of you imagine how that needs to happen. The only thing that's apparent is that the Ducks need to break themselves out of this cycle. Right now, it's the same thing every year. The Ducks rely too much on the top line, and hope for the offensive depth to click at the right time. This team needs an identity that doesn't revolve around the big line, otherwise it will never be able to sustain itself when they aren't playing well.
[Ed. Note: Ducks have assigned JF Jacques back to Syracuse, and have called up Nick Bonino.]
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This team is maddening. Getz, Perry, Bobby, Selanne and Fowler are all cheap as hell. A semi competent GM should be able to take those savings and give us a bottom 6 that can do more then occasionally look like actual hockey players. Its still early and this could be a bad 5 game stretch like everyone has but 1.9 gpg probably has a win percentage of 30% or so attached to it. Which needless to say would definitely cause a loss of some of my favorite players for picks.
Winnipeg fans will he watching us and licking their chops.
by Daniel AC on Oct 31, 2011 11:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe we can give Getzlaf for Parise. Ah to dream.
by DavidBL on Oct 31, 2011 12:40 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
So, Tootoo dives, but...
Spaling goes on IR, and Fisher and Kostitsyn are out tonight. This is why I hate your team.
What did we do to Kostitsyn and Spaling?
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Managing Editor - Anaheim Calling
This is why I hate Preds fans
So there.
by PhantomPretender on Oct 31, 2011 12:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Watever Preds fan. Hate your GM for getting players made of glass who can’t stand up to clean hockey hits.
by Daniel AC on Oct 31, 2011 1:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
So honestly, what is the reason you came onto here to post what you did?
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Ignore this guy....
hes has always worn HARDCORE homer goggles and has shown again and again his lack of hockey knowledge
Why not try out Cogs with the finns? I think RC had them out there for a shift towards the end of the 3rd and i thought they looked good. Maybe this gets Cogs and Koivu going.
I think with bonno being called up that is exactly what we’ll see on tuesday.
Our constant struggles make me question our system of play. It worked 5 years ago but I feel that the sport has gotten faster as the years progress. Another concern is how well players do after they leave the Ducks and how poor most players tend to take to our system. Maybe Murray hasn’t gotten the right players but it just seems so common for us to get a player and have them underperform for us. I can’t help but be reminded of that “fire for the smoke” post a few weeks back.
by DavidBL on Oct 31, 2011 12:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
But who do you think he’ll play with? I can never tell with this constant line shuffling. And if he gets put on the forth line, the five minutes he plays a game won’t be much help.
Bonino will likely center the 3rd line and Macenour will stick with the 4th. The big 3 will be reunited, they seem lost at even strength without Ryan. Cogs will get his chance with the finns on the 2nd line.
by DavidBL on Oct 31, 2011 12:37 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think not losing a bunch of face-offs every game will be q big boost to Cogs’ confidence
by Daniel AC on Oct 31, 2011 1:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It all boils down to missing one or both of Scott Niedermayer and/or Chris Pronger. Seems Teemu is too nice to these kids and keeps putting the team on his old shoulders whereas you just don’t want to disappoint Nieds or Prongs and they ALWAYS bring it…
If Murray trades some of these kids I’d be satisfied if he brought even one player with something close to what Nieds and Prongs brought be they forwards or defensemen.
This is why Brenden Morrow is a perfect fit.
But that will probably never happen.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Yeah, really nice.
He would be a perfect, “Kunitz-like” presence next to Saku and Teemu, and if they stick Ryan with those guys, then Morrow could play with Getzy and Perrs, and it would be just like when they wreaked havoc at the Olympics.
It’s nearly impossible to get someone of his stature/calibre though since he plays for a division rival and is the Captain of that team too. Dallas would definitely want Fowler too since they stupidly passed over him on draft day and are living to regret it.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
As long as he doesnt trade fowler and sbisa....
that is essentially Nieds Jr and Prongs Jr.
Is anyone getting the feeling that Carlyle might be on thin ice if this continues at all? I’m sorry but there is enough talent on this team for them to be winning and I feel that he’s been constantly mismanaging his assets. He always talks about wanting results from the depth guys in order to “earn” there spot. But he seems to only care about goals, even though sometimes you can help the team win without scoring.
I really liked the way the lines looked at the beginning when we went on that small win streak. The top line is arguably untouchable at this point. And I like the 4th line composition better with McMillan on it. That being said I think separating Cogs and Gordon right now is a terrible idea. I would love to see a Cogliano, Selanne, Gordon line instead. Maybe some time apart will help Koivu’s game and he can focus more on D with DSP and McMillan/Bonino maybe?
I’m also really sick of the forwards getting all the blame. It does the team no good when the D cant get the puck up the ice and is constantly coughing it up to the other team. Also being down one or more goals in the first few minutes of a game allows the opposing team to play in a shell, making it much harder to score. When are guys like Beauchemin and Fowler gonna be held accountable. When is Sbisa’s great play going to be rewarded? When are the D pairings going to recieve the same about of scrutiny and swapping that we are seeing with the forwards. Add that in with constant line switching and the top guys getting WAY too much TOI it makes it near impossible to develop chemistry and a balanced scoring attack. I get that Carlyle’s record is great, but he’s also had some of the best talent this franchise has ever seen.
Since the horrible, horrible Phoenix and Dallas games, Carlyle has tried his best not to move the d-men into unfavourable positions on the ice. What did worked well against Minnesota (constantly moving the puck back to the defence to set up the forwards in the neutral zone), which is probably why he’s sticking with it now.
The only defenceman I’ve seen who is constantly pinching is Fowler (and Sbisa to an extent), and that works. So I think it is fair to blame the offense/forwards since they’re the ones who are held accountable in generating offense.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I really doubt it, we go through this every year. I can’t ever remember a time where Carlyle was really in jeopardy. Last year was the closest and he ended up with a 3 year extension. No, Murray is placing this on the players. Murray has stated that he wont make a panic trade. He wants to give the kids 20 games to try and develop chemistry and start producing. I’ll be honest, with 2 potential top 6 centers in Syracuse and Getzlafs inconsistency and utter failure (in my eyes anyway) as a leader that he should be the one sent packing a trade.
For the sake of the thread, I’ll respond to Kevin hear and then David after that.
First, I don’t think Carlyle’s job is in any kind of danger, and I don’t really think he should be blamed for what’s gone wrong with the team. If the coach isn’t getting the desired results, or isn’t properly motivating the players anymore, then the only person who can do anything about it is the GM. My contention has always been that Murray should either get the players that fit what Randy wants to do, or he should get himself a coach who will make the players that he acquires work. I don’t really see a middle ground on that issue. In my eyes, it’s like hiring a math teacher to teach communication. In that situation, it’s neither the student’s nor the teacher’s fault.
When I wrote the article, I was focusing on the lack of leadership from the star forwards. As I say in the article, as the top line goes, so go the team, and that’s the key problem. The team seems to be enabling this type of behavior. The first minute goal in Nashville was entirely Getzlaf’s fault. He tried to check Hornqvist and missed badly. That’s why Hornqvist was a lone in the crease taking 3 whacks at the puck. Of course, Hiller also shouldn’t have moved his pad like he did. I think when our D fails is when the forwards stop giving them passing options. I won’t say turnovers aren’t happening, but I will say that the problems are more prevalent when the forwards aren’t doing their job on defense.
@David: I think trading Getzlaf is a bit rash. I hope I’m not crucified for saying this, but I think we should take a page out of the Sharks book and just take the C away from Getzlaf. It’s too soon to give up on him as a player, and maybe taking away the burden of leadership would work well for him. I still think Bobby is the player to trade.
My rational on trading Getzlaf stems from a couple things. 1) We have two projected top 6 centers in the making to move in and replace Getzlaf. Stemming from that is that we really don’t have the LW depth to replace Ryan. 2) Getzlaf is probably easier to move. There are more then a few teams looking for a true #1 center, which Getzlaf is. Getzlaf is also probably worth more, especially with time left on his contract, Yes Ryan as more time but it doesn’t diminish Getzlafs value. 3) Ryan and Perry have both shown that they can produce without Getzlaf. Getzlaf and Perry haven’t in recent memory proved they can produce without Ryan at even strength. 4) As has been stated, there seems to be a leadership problem. Getzlaf is the Captain so it lands on his shoulders to lead the team. I’m all for removing the C but who do you give it to? Perry? Selanne and Koivu don’t want it. I’m just simply not convinced in Getzlafs character. I have a lot less concerned with Ryans.
1) Which centers would those be? Holland and… If you trade Getzlaf, you’re really rebuilding this roster from scratch. I’m sorry, but there’s no one who’s shown that they can shoulder a #1 burden and match Getzlaf’s production. As for replacing Ryan, I think Deschamps and DSP have 20 goal potential. Not to be nitpicky, but Bobby isn’t really a LW, he just plays there.
2) I would actually argue that most teams aren’t looking for a #1 center, because it’s the thing you try to make sure you always have. Toronto is the most likely deal, but do we really want to trade with Burke again? After that you’ve got the Flames who have an empty cabinet by most accounts, and maybe the Coyotes. Teams will find space for scoring wingers, but not too many are looking to load up on top centers with Getzie’s contract. I’m sure there’s some kind of market for a guy of his talents, but I’m pretty confident that Bobby will stir up more interest. Mostly because he scores the flashy goals.
3) I’ll give you recent memory, but at this point, sadly, I think they’ve developed a mildly symbiotic relationship with the guy. More importantly, I’m pretty confident they’ll turn it around if they get an opportunity to settle in with a linemate who can handle the defensive pressure that is now coming their way. In the mean time, Bobby is upping his value by letting Teemu make him look good.
4) I don’t see why there isn’t a concern over Ryan’s character. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything about this problem either. Personally, I think he’s a part of it. He’s just as guilty as the twins of not hustling every shift, and he can be just as absent minded with the puck. I just don’t see how he is magically less inconsistent than the other guys on the big line. Sure, Getzlaf might be a poor leader, but as 2Mex says, worship the music not the man. So what if he isn’t a great leader. Not keeping other people mentally focused in no way means he doesn’t make them better on the ice. Moreover, what makes you think Koivu wouldn’t take it. He hasn’t had it offered to him. I think Selanne has said he doesn’t want it, but I never remember Koivu saying it.
1)Holland is 1. Bonino is the other. He filled in alright 2 years ago when he had vet help on his wings. There is also a possible return for Getzlaf depending on the deal. You are right, no one has shown that they can match Getzlafs production. But if we’re talking about improving the all around team you can make up that production by committee. if DSP or Deschamps can replace Ryan a 30+goal scorer then someone else can do the same for Getzlaf. I am aware Ryan is naturally a RW, I have mentioned it on these boards, but it doesn’t change the fact that he is our ONLY LW that produces like a top 6 winger. Beleskey had significant time there and his production wasn’t near what Ryans has been.
2) New Jersey comes to mind as a team that doesn’t have a true #1. Zajac isn’t terrible, but he’s hurt and really more suited as number 2. Elias isn’t doing bad but they would likely like to fill the spot with someone more suited to it. Montreal doesn’t really have a top guy. Plekanec isn’t bad but hes not a Joe Thornton, Ryan Getzlaf, Sidney Crosby, Anze Kopitar, Mike Richards, Brad Richards. Pavel Datsyuk. I honestly feel that Getzlaf is high enough caliber that he makes a market. Who would have thought that Mike Richards and Jeff Carter would be moved?
3) I agree, given time the trio will figure it out, they’ll get their points and they will be high. Interesting to note that though Getzlaf has 7 pts right now, they have come in 4 games, which means he has been shut down in 7. Id be happier with him getting pts in 7 games rather then getting multiple points in 4. I don’t buy that Selanne makes Ryan look good, or that Perry makes him look good. If that was the case then Blake or anyone would look good or better and the facts just don’t show that. I will admit that the big 3 looked good the other night when they were reunited yet they still didn’t get a goal where Selanne and Ryan did. So far this season Getzlaf has 7 pts, 4 of with came on the PP. Ryan has 5, none of which came on the PP. which means Ryan is outproducing Getzlaf in 5 on 5 play.
4) I don’t have concern for Ryans character because I don’t see him slacking off as much as I feel I see Getzlaf and frankly its not his job to fix the problem either. Ryan may not be a good leader either, the difference is they didn’t ask him to be. I may just be overly critical of Getzlaf because I expect more from him. He is the Captain and as such he is setting the pace for the team in the locker room and on the ice. That’s the problem I have with his character. I don’t agree about the mental aspect either. He may make his single line better but he needs to be the guy that makes the entire team better. That is part of being the leader, that’s his job. If Ryan is a problem like you suggest then Getzlaf has to right that. I don’t think Getzlaf can because I worry about how much respect is really there. He may be the best player on the team skill wise but its kind of hard to take advice about work ethic from a guy who simply doesn’t show much of it himself. Koivu may not have said that he wont be captain, and maybe he does take it over, but what happens next year when he likely retires? We don’t know either way but I have to feel that the very fact that he isn’t wearing the C points to the idea that he doesn’t want it. IMO like most of this. I do appreciate that chance for the conversation though.
If Holland or Bonino would be #1 Center material, so that we can trade Getzlaf right now, we wouldn’t need to argue about the lack of depth scoring or am i wrong? If those guys are #1 center ready, then they would at least play on the 3rd line and provide some depth.
I can see why we get frustrated about the RPG Line, but quite frankly… i can’t think of anybody in the league i would trade one of them. You don’t get a crosby for getzlaf, let alone that we couldn’t even handle a contract like sidneys (Thanks ownership ! You are really helping your team this year ! … god damn..)
I liked your atricle Daniel, but i don’t agree with your conclusions.
As for the leadership thing… yeah, Getzlaf pretty much sucks as captain, but the idea behind it was, that the “C” may help him taking the next step in his developement.
The Ducks had those offnights even with guys like Pronger, Niedermayer, Marchant, etc around. So i can’t see why the leadership should be blamed. I also don’t like Getzlaf as the captain, but he’s not the problem.
As far as the whole “Carlyle sucks” argument goes…. i thought the same thing 2 seasons ago, but let’s be honest. What does he do wrong? he has a relatively weak defensivecorps, he has a topline as good as any in the league, and Selanne. Besides them he has aging veterans who are way past the prime (hey ho koivu) and a bunch of kids who needs to learn alot.
Throw in there, that our 2 best defenseman are Sbisa and Fowler (yeye i know, Beauchemin…. other topic) i don’t think he does all that bad.
He relies on the strength of this team, using the topline as much as he can. He quit the cycling for all lines, so that our speedy lines could use their speed in the neutral zone.
Maybe we could use a bit of fresh air in that locker room, but i don’t see where carlyle fails?
as for the GM: you can argue about that, i see, but given the fakt that anaheim is a small market, given that we have a low budget to spend (and not a guy on the blueline whos middle name is “norris”) i don’t think he’s doing that bad. sure he made a few mistakes, but i can’t think of a GM who is without faults. Plus i don’t see a better replacement on the market right now.
I agree with you to get rid of carlyle and murray if we get babcock and Chiarelli (or this caliber) back, but i just don’t see us getting guys like that.
no problem, why should i have one?
i just stated that i completely agree with you if the Ducks would be able to find somebody in that category, but i belief that those guys are just out of our range / budget
I got that you were agreeing with me, but I was curious as to what you see the cause of the problem is. I think you make valuable counter points to my contentions; I just want to know what you think the cause is. I’m not trying to be challenging or anything. I’m legitimately curious.
i think it just needs time. as soon as our depth guys start getting comfortable and are able to score in such hard hitting games we have a chance. our topline just looses their cool in some games, we have seen that over and over again and i don’t think that is going to change.
so i think, after an additional 20 games we should see some production out of our depth and be in good shape.
of course it would help if someone could teach Perry and Getzlaf how to keep their cool and continuing to play their game…
i’m a bit disappointed about our d-pairings.
i think we need someone who could play with fowler. Beauch is a great player, but those 2 together just don’t work as good as they should. If i would like a trade, it would be a prospect / 2013 pick for a right shooting defensive dmen who could play with fowler.
but than again, thats just my weak point of view, i can’t see that glare problem that hurts our team
I like the idea of that trade. I’d love d-pairings like this
lubo-lydman
Fowler-X
Beauchemin-Sbisa.
Maybe time does solve the problem, but I think the fact that we’ve observed this trend over a few seasons leads me to believe there is some systemic problem that isn’t being addressed.
speaking of trading for D, what say about franson? i know you’d have to talk with burke again, but he just doesnt seem to be working out there and he does seem to have talent nad hes BIG
by BennyLightning on Nov 1, 2011 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I suppose he’s an option, but what does Burke want…? That’s the real question. I love Burkie, but I don’t know if Murray can survive another deal with him.
I just don’t see anything that makes sense unless they want to do a Franson Foster swap. course it would probably cost a good prospect too, all for a guy that can’t even break the roster. I’m not sure I’ve seen a trade that Burke has lost. Other than McDonald for Weight. but its hard to call it a loss when it was a salary dump…
Finally…David
1) I think Bonino has top 6 potential, but if you’re going to move a guy like Getzlaf, you’d better be damn sure you’ve got someone who can replace him. The Ducks can replace Bobby with Etem, DSP and Deschamps. I would contend that you can’t make the same replacement because Bobby isn’t the same kind of player. Getzlaf will find guys with his passes, whether or not they bury it is contingent on their ability to finish. Maybe Bobby is the only LW right now, but maybe we can trade him for 2 more…
2) I guess you could put NJ in that category, but they want to spend money on D, Parise and Kovalchuk. Maybe they take Getzlaf, but what do you get back? Bobby is an easier piece to move. I bet Pittsburgh would open up big time to get their hands on him. Orpik and Kunitz for Bobby. Do it! LOL
3) I don’t really see the difference between outscoring someone in 5-on-5 situations. Points are points. Maybe Selanne doesn’t make Bobby look good, but both of Bobby’s goals on that line were the direct result of Selanne who fed him on an odd man rush, and made the play in front of the net so Bobby had a tap in on a rebound. You knock Getzlaf for scoring 7 points in 4 games, but Bobby has 5 points in 3 games. Homeboy isn’t exactly the model of consistency himself. Pick your poison, I guess.
4) So, Bobby’s lack of effort is ok, because he doesn’t wear a letter. I guess that’s a fair point, but if you take away Getzlaf’s letter then they are equally inconsistent. I would contend that at the point that they put in the same effort, then regardless of letter, you keep the best player. That’s Getzlaf.
1) I am not sure if we have anyone that can actually fill Getzlafs shoes as far as production or skill. There just aren’t that many guys in the league that really can. Boston did alright for a team that that didn’t have any superstar centers. Maybe Krejci and Boychuck ( a right shooting phycical defencemen) in a package.
2 Bobby is easier to move, I wont deny it, but that is because he is cheaper, another team will have to give up less to get Ryan then to get Getzlaf. I don’t think Pit would go for it actually, not with the emergence of Neal this year. Not that I’d mind so much, but Kunitz never really fit with the twins for whatever reason.
3) I’d contend that 5-on-5 points are more important then PPP. The team will spends the majority of time playing a game 5-on-5. A team needs to be able to produce there because they can’t rely on the refs to give them enough power plays to score enough goals to win games. For instance if we got 4 power plays in one game, which is a decent amount, with last years pp% (3rd in the league?) we’d score 1 goal. 1 goal doesn’t win a game.
4) I would agree that without the letter they would likely be close or equally inconsistent in their efforts. But Ryan has the unknown factor of what would happen if they gave him the letter, would he rise to the occasion like they had hope Getzlaf would or would he flounder like Getzlaf has as a leader? You would likely contend the Ryan has shown no reason as to why he would rise to the occasion. I don’t know, maybe I have an irrational like or Ryan but I think if given the opportunity that he would do better. I really don’t have any evidence that I can think of to support that, just a gut feeling.
1) yes, but Boston reinvested that cash in D and a goalie. They used a different model.
2) Kunitz doesn’t have to fit with the twins. He’d fit with Koivu and Selanne, and we can try to get other guys with the twins..like DSP, or Palmieri, or Deschamps, or Etem, or Sexton or whoever.
3) I disagree. Production is production. No matter when you score a goal, it’s important, so long as you aren’t already up by 3. I got into a similar argument with a guy on the Perry story I wrote last season. He tried to argue that even though Perry scored more “important” goals, i.e. game tying and game winning, than Daniel Sedin, that a higher percentage of Daniel’s goals were "important and therefore he was being more valuable. Well, once you say a goal is important, helpful, etc. it doesn’t matter when or how it’s scored.
4) Well, I can really argue a gut feeling that you have. You’re certainly free to think that Bobby Ryan is a better player than he is :)
But it IS the forwards, too . . .
I DO hold the forwards accountable for our inability to get the puck out of the zone. Too many times I see them standing around, no support for the puck carrier, or waiting in the neutral zone for an 80’ stretch pass that more often than not is mishandled and turned over. This is just fundamental stuff, and there’s not much excuse for not doing it right at this level.
Daniel makes a valid point that the GM is responsible for getting his coach the “right” players, but I hold the coach (and the Captain) accountable for establishing a system that works, and motivating the players to buy into it. Clearly they don’t. Either they don’t want to win bad enough to try to do so from the get-go, or they have no confidence in the system the coach requires them to play. Professional or not, if you don’t believe in what you’re doing, you won’t be 100 percecent doing it – that’s human nature. And the way RC juggles the lines (except of course the twins, who are untouchable?), nobody else on the roster knows from night to night who his linemates are, and lack of instant success only brings more of the same. Why try? Yet after three years of the same old “stuff,” Carlyle gets a three year extension? I’m pretty confident we can look forward to three more years of mediocrity, unless the Samueli’s decide to bail.
As an aside, I liked seeing Bobby Ryan with Koivu and Selanne – that line has contributed the only two even-strength goals in the last 3 games. Ryan leads the team in even-strength points, but way below where he should be. The twins aren’t much better than the rest of the crowd at even strength, but they should be, no matter who’s on left wing.
However it comes, Daniel is right that this team needs a major shake-up, and it ought to include a major player and the coach. The Boston Bruins traded a captain several years ago to their benefit; why not us?
Personally, I’d really like to see Ryan and Perry with Koivu and Selanne playing with Getzlaf and DSP. That just sounds fun to me.
.
Could be more than fun Daniel. Ryan and Perry found some chemistry last year while Getzlaf was out. What about Cogs with Getzlaf and Selanne?
I don’t know. So far the only thing I’ve seen from Cogliano that I like is that he’s fast. It could certainly work, and I’d be more comfortable with it if Bonino is centering the third line. But I just want to see DSP get some top line minutes before he gets sent back to juniors. I think he should stay up this year, but I can’t shake this feeling he’s going back to Junior.
i’m pretty sure he’s going back. Personally i can’t see why he sould be considered NHL ready. he dominated juniors because of his strength, but in the NHL that doesn’t work anymore for him.
But it would be nice to see what he can do with a center like Getzlaf for one game.
but nice to see that JLL starts with bashing carlyle for juggling the lines too much and then comes up with something like seperating perry and getzlaf, throwing in som cogs, or DPS, maybe play Selanne with Getzlaf etc …
The kid makes very smart plays with the puck and doesn’t turn it over. That’s what makes me think he’s NHL ready. As long as a guy can stay mentally tough, he will have the ability to do good things for the team without being a detriment. DSP has shown that. He needs more minutes to find the scoring touch, but he’s finding space and making good plays. He really just needs minutes.
I 100% agree with Daniel....
but I think we also forgot to mention that if you get rid of Getzlaf….. what does that do to Perry…… think of it like the Richards/Carter situation in Philly…..they were both PISSED that they were seperated
Freakle, I agree that Carlyle might resort to line shuffling to soon but the one thing he NEVER does is split up Getzlaf and Perry or Selanne and Koivu. Maybe its time he tried the thing he never does. Its hard to find chemistry when your line-mates change all the time. but no matter how much Carlyle moves around his line combinations Perry-Getzlaf and Selanne-Koivu always remain together. If he’s trying to spark the team by moving people, getting different looks, do it with the whole team. not just some players.
that’s carlyles gameplan, he has his duos that he doesn’t change, and then a spot on those pairings who needs to be filled given the situation.
so it wouldn’t made sense in his mind to break those duos up.
and i have to agree with him. Selanne lives from his speed and his fast release, Getzlaf from his cycling game, just like Perry.
I would give Selanne a look on that Topline, but i don’t think it would work. Plus i don’t know if selanne is capable of playing top line minutes against top shutdown pairs 82 games a season… sounds pretty hard for a 40+ player.
I'm not sure there needs to be a trade just yet
As you mentioned, there are a lot of players in Syracuse that haven’t been given a shot this year. I think a trade would be the proper course to take after all farm options are exhausted. The talent is there. The players just need to find chemistry. It is Randy’s responsibility to put the players in the best position to succeed.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
I personally would want to wait a little bit longer before a trade, at least until game 20 or 30 in the season. I personally would like to see Palmieri be called up and maybe play in the 2nd line, but he has been out for a week with that hip injury. Hopefully they will wake up these last 3 games of the road trip.
However, if there is a culture problem in the locker room, only a major trade will shake things up sufficiently.
I agree, but you said above that you still advocate trading Bobby. If you want to shake things up and send a message, trading Bobby isn’t going to do it. The only way you get the attention of the guys in the room is to trade Getz or Perry, which probably won’t happen. Trading Bobby wouldn’t send a message, given that he’s already shuttled up and down the lineup. It’s not like he’s treated as sancrosanct by the organization already, so a Bobby trade probably won’t effect and significant change in the locker room.
by PhantomPretender on Oct 31, 2011 8:25 PM PDT reply actions
Disagree. Bobby is a valuable enough piece that you can use him to build the kind of package that can get you a personality that will overshadow that of the twins. I think a guy like Weber can turn the team around and Bobby could be a piece in acquiring a guy like that this offseason. Bobby may not be treated as sacrosanct by Carlyle, but I bet if you asked people if the Ducks would ever consider trading Ryan, you’d get a large chorus of nos.
Bobby or Getzlaf?
I agree that Ryan could be a big piece of the puzzle in a major trade. The operative words in your comment though, are “a personality that can overshadow the twins.” Assuming we could get someone like Shea Weber, do we also strip Getzlaf of the ‘C?’ I personally don’t think he deserves to wear it, but you seem to be tacitly acknowledging a leadership problem in the room, and on the ice as well. In that case, who is currently more of a downer to the team, Bobby or Getzlaf? Could we not work a deal for a Weber-type personality aroung Getzlaf as well, and shatter all the sacred cows in one move?
I just don’t think there’s another #1 center in the system. I think Holland will be a good and productive center, but I don’t think he’ll be a dominant force by any means. The guy still plays small and that’s dangerous in the Pacific division.
I think Getzlaf is definitely more of a downer for the team than Bobby, primarily because Bobby isn’t that impactful of a player. I’ve said this many times about Bobby, but the kid isn’t the type of player you build a franchise around. He is what he is, a really good scorer. He’ll have 30+ goal seasons for the majority of his career, but I wonder if he’ll ever crack 82 points. Maybe getting on the first unit will help, but he really does have an adverse reaction to giving up the puck. Yes, Getzlaf is part of the problem, but I wonder where the real problem is. Leadership manifests itself in many ways, and Getzlaf, in some way, isn’t getting the job done. I wonder if a bottom 6 veteran with a more vocal leadership style would be enough. The only thing missing is consistency. I’m just an outside observer, so it’s hard to nail down the real issue. I think a coaching change might do some good too. I wish Bylsma was available.
Ultimately, I think what the Ducks need are players who know how to perform without taking their cues from the top line. Maybe a guy like Avery would actually do some good. Someone who really knows his job and just does it. I think that would be a great help to getting the twins adjusted to consistent leadership. Yeah, they played with Niedermayer, but somethings just can’t be taught.
The best thing we could’ve done in the off-season was to go out and get a “back-up” second line left-winger if Blake or any other top piece happened to go down for a long period of time. Someone like Morrow would be hard to get without sacrificing someone like Fowler and/or Sbisa, but I honestly think Murray should’ve made a move for Arnott or Langenbrunner.
Heck, if this keeps up, I think Murray should pursue either of those guys, as they have Cup experiences, Olympic experiences and experience wearing letters in different locker rooms.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I have to admit you’re probably right about a #1 center. I really don’t know much about Holland, but I have to agree there’s really nobody to step right into the slot; even Koivu I tend to think of as more of a checking line center in the waning years of his career. So maybe Bobby is the better choice. I will say that I’ve felt for a while that Bobby might flourish on another team, but he just might continue being Bobby. I’d really like to see us get someone like Patrice Bergeron – he does it all at both ends of the ice and brings it every night. I hear he’s quite a voice in the room as well. He’ll be a Bruin forever though (not that I mind – I grew up in Boston watching Bobby Orr) so we’ll have to look elsewhere. As we talked about earlier, maybe busting up the twins is a first step, which might help us identify the real problem, and could also be an inspiration to the rest of the crew. If no one is perceived as sacred, maybe everybody works harder.
I guess I’m not convinced that we need that Getzlaf caliber player in the Center of the first line. Rucchin did a decent job centering PK those years ago. I’d think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone who would call him a #1 center.
let Bobby play on the first PP unit next year when selanne retires, and you have your next 90 point guy
I don’t know about that. I know everyone thinks it’s the panacea for Bobby’s point totals, but honestly, I don’t know if he’s mature enough to be on the top unit. I’m sorry, but there’s a reason the guy only has 1 assist this year. He’s just not good at giving up the puck, that’s not good on the PP.
I know we differ here
But I still think the entire point of the power play is to score. It’s entirely possible that one of the biggest problems we’ve had so far with the PP is that everyone wants to pass. I’m not so sure putting a guy with a knack for scoring goals on the top unit would somehow be worse than what we already have.
Also, it’s a bit early to be saying things like “he only has 1 assist out ofhis five points, therefore…” Over his career, Bobby’s points are pretty much evenly distributed between goals and assists. Not sure why his results over 11 games disqualify several years’ worth of data.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 1, 2011 8:13 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
By several years, you mean 3, right? Hardly a sufficient sample size. More importantly, Bobby has been reluctant to give up the luck his entire career. It’s the thing the twins complained about when he first got on the line. It’s a good thing he’s bad linemates to put those rebounds away.
As for the PP, I call non-unique on your argument. The point of any sustained pressure in the offensive zone is to score. PPs provide a unique opportunity to increase that probability. No one clicks at 100% for a season. It’s necessary to move the puck in order to tire defenders and open up passing lanes. PPs are about sustained pressure. Yeah, the space will let Bobby shoot more and some of those will go in, but overall I don’t see how it’s different from having Selanne except Selanne is better than Bobby in almost every way.
by Daniel AC on Nov 1, 2011 8:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m going to defend Phantom here, Ryans assists have gone up every year since he joined the league, he’s always been around 50/50 guy, yes usually trending to more goals then assists. Last year however he did have more assists the goals. The trend shows an increasing willingness to set up players or give the puck away. Its also hard to compare the guy to arguably one of the best players to play the game, at least this early in his career. But Ryan wont get first unit time till Perry or Selanne get hurt, which we don’t want so I am okay with it.
As for our PP, I feel like they gave the point shot to Fowler instead of Lubo, which I don’t quite understand. Lubo has the better shot. Fowler is the better passer in my eyes. I think this has created issues for our top unit.
While I agree that Bobby could net a significant piece
I have a hard time seeing ANYONE come into this locker room and changing the mentality. I think the only way to really change the mentality is to trade one of the problem players. But hey, I’m for just about anything at this point that will light a fire under their collective asses.
Although I’d really rather not trade away Bobby. But that goes without saying
by PhantomPretender on Oct 31, 2011 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
After reading all of this....
I still come to the same conclusion: Carlyle is the best and easiest piece to move. Getzlaf and Ryan are elite talents and really shouldn’t be moved, nor would we get any sort of equal talent on the way back. Getting Weber or someone like him is ridiculous, plus the fact we would never be able to pay for someone like that. Say whatever you will about the way this team was built, but there is more talent on this roster than what we are seeing on the ice. That comes from leadership, so either the coaching or the guys wearing the letters need to step it up or leave. I feel that these players have the passion to do well and win but not the guidance. Daniel your totally right when you say that this team wasn’t built around Randys style and that is very true. He seems to be very handcuffed and always solves problems with the same tactics, he has no imagination. He always leans on the same solutions for the same problems.
by Kevin Riach on Nov 1, 2011 7:17 PM PDT via iPhone app reply actions
I’ve been a staunch Carlyle defender for a while, but even I’m starting to be swayed. Ultimately, I think Murray just hasn’t given him the players to play the game the way he wants to. That’s not his fault, it doesn’t mean he’s a bad coach. However, making that move falls to Murray. No one can fire Carlyle except Murray. At that point, I think Murray is still the guy responsible. If the coach isn’t working. The GM has to make a change. Sad, but true.
Completely Agree
Its Murray’s mistake and he needs to fix it. But this is not a team built for Carlyle and I’m sure that there is someone else out there that could make it work. Nothing against Carlyle, who is still a very good coach, but he’s just not right for THIS team.
Sorry boys, im going to take another tact. Im putting this on the players.
Firstly RC is a proven coach, and when the players play to the system it is a simple and beautiful system to watch, take 1st period for example. He has also taken us to the promised land nearly every year, with largely this cast of players. I do disagree with some of his defensive pairings (fowler and beauch, im looking at you), and time on ice for others, but overall he does a bloody good job for mine.
Murray, has put together (this year) a somewhat better list than we had at the same time last year, and is putting some stock in youth and the system. both i think are important in our situation as we need to have players taking a discount for us to be competitive (i.e. perry, getzlaf and to an extent ryan – not so much selanne anymore i dont think). Furthermore, i would suggest that it may be to early in the season to start making trades. The bottom 2 lines are newly formed and need some time to gel and find cohesion. I reserve to revisit this comment after 20 games however. I do agree we carry surplus players, parros and belesky for a couple (sorry i just dont see the appeal)
The players however seem to lack interest for portions of the game. However i dont think its all players, just the ones that get the bulk of the playing time, hence it appears to be worse than it is. Sure some of the younger players are making mistakes, but you cant really fault their effort. The top line however is another story. and its been a similar story for a long time. However, getzlaf is the exact player that we drafted and has the same problems. HOWEVER he is now the captain of the club, for good or for bad he HAS to lead the club by word and by deed. sadly he does, but not the way we would all like. He either needs to show a marked improvement or needs to drop the captaincy.
by BennyLightning on Nov 2, 2011 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
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