Teemu Selanne: The Actual Ducks GM?
by Jen Neale on Nov 28, 2011 10:00 PM PST
in Coach Bombay's Corner
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All Ducks fans are waiting for something - anything - big to come from the Ducks. So far, the biggest move has been the sending of Brandon McMillan to Syracuse (totally warranted, by the way). Everyone is expecting/calling for Randy Carlyle to lose his job. I've been saying for a while that Carlyle hasn't been axed for financial reasons, but then I started to consider something else.
The Capitals will never admit it, but Bruce Boudreau was fired because of Alex Ovechkin and Alexander Semin. (And suuuuree you were shocked by that, Ovi.) The Alexes (Alexi?) are superstar players being paid millions of dollars and are the faces of their team. Boudreau is a great coach, but the Caps would sooner trade a struggling Ovechkin or Semin than I would dye my hair back to its natural mousy-brown color (never happening). When the coach held out Ovie in the final minutes of the game versus the Ducks, it was the beginning of the end for Boudreau. Next up was the benching of Semin in a game versus the Devils. Following that, the team tuned Boudreau more each day finally leading to his firing. This had nothing to do with wins and losses. This was about keeping your stars happy, inadvertently showing their power over the organization.
What does this have to do with the Ducks? Bobby Ryan, Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry are the future faces of the franchise, in something I'll call PTE or Post-Teemu Era. The Big 3 are well paid and popular, like Ovechkin and Semin, but they don't have the same kind of pull as the Alexes. There was a time last year that the Ducks were struggling and I could tell that RPG was tuning out Carlyle on the bench, and Carlyle was taking to calling them out by name in the media. Had they been able to influence GM Bob Murray at all, Carlyle would not be our coach right now. Instead, Murray threatened to send one of them elsewhere - a threat he hasn't made this season. The Ducks started winning and all was right again in the world.
Here the Ducks find themselves in another downward spiral and the Ducks front office is silent. Everyone (except me) is expecting some massive earth shattering change. (When I say "everyone" I mean the entire hockey world. The Ducks are being covered more by the mainstream hockey media now that they're losing than when they were making their epic playoff run last year.) The first instinct is to go with firing the coach. Obviously, that hasn't happened. I've been looking for signs that the players are over Carlyle, but it's not there. Teemu Selanne says to the press that the room is "100% supportive" of Carlyle. When Teemu speaks for the group, I'm more inclined to believe. Selanne is a classy guy, he's not going to publicly support Carlyle and then throw him under the bus in private. If Selanne wanted Carlyle fired, he would have demanded it, and most certainly wouldn't have voiced his support.
Next up is a gigantic trade likely involving one of the members of RPG. I have to believe that there are more than just Columbus' GM salivating at the idea of getting one of those guys. It's more likely that none of them are being shopped or the deals just aren't good enough, but I think it comes back to Teemu. I read somewhere that Teemu said that the players in the room are the ones that the team is going to get out of this hole with, and there is no missing piece that will make everything better. Do you think that trading one of the most skilled players in league is going to make things better or is Teemu right in implying the guys on the team now are the ones that will turn it around and it's all mental right now? Teemu wants to be surrounded by people that will make the team better. Had he felt that getting rid of Ryan, Perry, or Getzlaf in exchange for someone else, it would have been done games ago. Also, Teemu said he'd "had an eye on" Nicklas Hagman for a while and BOOM he becomes a Duck. I don't think that's just a coincidence.
This is Teemu's last year (maybe, likely, sorta...), and no one is more embarrassed by the current state of the Ducks than he is. He didn't come back for this crap. I have to believe that if Teemu wanted to shake the team up for his final year, he would have more influence than most in Murray's decisions. He is the franchise. This is his team. Hell, once he does hang 'em up, he should go Mario Lemieux on the Ducks and buy a controlling piece of the team from the Samueli's. Remember, each time he re-upped for another season, Murray would mention that Teemu would talk with him about the current state of the team and what it needed to win. This isn't Teemu in training for a GM job, this is Teemu righting the ship. Just like the Alexes and the Caps, the Ducks will listen to his demands. Next year isn't his concern - it's winning right now.
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I wouldn't complain if Teemu backstabbed Carlyle
If Selanne managed to get Carlyle fired and replaced with Boudreau, my Teemu mancrush would be even bigger, and I didn’t think that was possible. Anaheim’s current roster needs an offense first coach. How many more games do we need to see opposing teams shut down the RPG cycle offense before the front office is convinced that we need a new system?
Fight on!
EMAW!
I think this is a situation where “shopped” needs to be more clearly defined. Taking multiple offers could be considered shopping. I just hope Murray gets the defender we need if he moves Ryan.
by Daniel AC on Nov 29, 2011 11:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
this is what espn insider says:
The trade talk regarding Bobby Ryan of the Anaheim Ducks is getting louder.
Sportsnet’s Daren Millard reports an NHL executive told Nick Kypreos on Monday that the Ducks are shopping Ryan.
We recently discussed the possibility of the club making a major move including Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf. With two wins in their last 18 games, the team has to make some sort of change (or two). And Randy Carlyle is reportedly safe at present in his position as head coach.
Earning an average salary of just over $5 million/year, Ryan is signed until 2015. Dealing for the forward would require a serious commitment, but a team like the Carolina Hurricanes, Colorado Avalanche, Dallas Stars, Toronto Maple Leafs etc. might be willing to at least talk.
I don’t know how much of this to believe, they make it sound like we are desperate and are willing to take a bad deal to get rid of him.
Yeah, I don’t like the way that sounds, either. I hope Murray is just listening and trying to get a good deal. I would want Goligoski from Dallas in any deal for Bobby Ryan.
I’d say there are more teams in than out for the Bobby sweepstakes. One team I would really consider for the return they could provide is Philadelphia. As HockeyBreak retweeted, a Flyers insider said the team was always inquiring about the possibility of bringing in Bobby from here. I guess someone I would like to come back from there would be Braydon Coburn or Matt Carle, along with either JVR or Schenn.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
What is going on?
I just woke up and Twitter is blowing up over Bobby, and I can’t figure out why. Are there new details out there today or something?
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Oh true. It’s a bit unbelievable seeing as Bobby’s contract is absolutely great through the next 4 years, and he has future potential to be a captain, 50 goal scorer and face of this franchise. Not to mention, he’s already an Olympian, and may be called back again in 2014. It’s so absurd that we’re talking about this, when the owners should just suck it up, fire Carlyle and pay for two coaches. Samueli needs to intervene if he wants to save face with the fans, or else the highest pick ever (!) in Ducks history will be gone sometime this week. Keep the core, fire the coach.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I disagree. I don’t think Bobby will ever reach 50. Even if he gets that PP time. He doesn’t really play a consistent game. Perry always goes to the front of the net, Bobby only sometimes does it. He’s a solid player, but worth much more as a trade piece. If he gets us Weber, we should move him.
But if he is able to get us Nazem Kadri and Keith Aulie?
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Remember the last time we sent one of our forwards to toronto? Yah that hasn’t panned out very well..
Exactly.
I’m from Toronto, and I can tell you, as much as I would love to see Bobby come here and suit up in the blue and white, there is not much that benefits the Ducks in this scenario. Bob should pursue other, better options elsewhere.
Although when you think about it, Bobby already has chemistry with Kessel from the Olympics, and is best friends with Loops. Fitting on that line would be easy, and I’m sure that’s what Burkey is stressing during his calls with Bob.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I’m sure the Leafs would want Ryan to play centre. Even if he is horrible at taking faceoffs, they would likely not split up Kessel and Lupul. Maybe play Steckel there to begin with to win the FO and then quick-shift Bobby onto the ice. I don’t know, they would probably need to get creative if they really want it to happen.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
hey if it got weber id move perry for him. but…if ryan was to be moved (and i dont want this at all), what about to atlanta for buf and kane? might have to add something else, but…they need a star, we need big bodies
by BennyLightning on Nov 29, 2011 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
I would definitely not take on Byfuglien’s contract or attitude. He’s flashy and all of that, but he’s a loafer, doesn’t check, and is basically what Getzlaf would be like if he was on defense.
Bogosian or Enstrom is who I would look for. Kane is likely untouchable, but there were Twitter reports that Winnipeg had an offer on the table to “unknown team” that included LW Brian Little and “a defenseman”.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Lol, true enough.
And so if we’re picking top 3, say we get a guy like Ryan Murray or Griffin Reinhart, we’re never going to have another Bobby Ryan. Bob should stay with the core, and then add pieces through FA and the draft. Breaking up the good contracts and core of this team isn’t going to help, especially with one of the best lines in the NHL on some nights.
What’s wrong with the Ducks is the internal cap, which is handcuffing us from paying for two coaches and also preventing us from adding the right pieces. If Bob could have more leverage from Henry and Susan, then I bet we would have more pieces and subsequently be winning more this year. This should be all the more obvious that Teemu needs to buy a stake in this team so we can have an owner (or minority-owner) that wants to see the team succeed.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I go back to the comment from the other thread, we need to consider that there might be a problem with this core. I, of course, think Bobby’s inconsistent play is part of the problem. Getzlaf’s is as well, but I think Bobby is the more movable piece. Everyone can find space for a good winger.
I have always contended that the internal cap isn’t nearly as big of a hindrance as how Murray manages it. How great would a guy like Hannan or White be right now instead of Foster. Maybe the problem is ray the Ducks have too much invested in a core that isn’t working. Personally, I think Lubo and Lydmann are a big problem too.
by Daniel AC on Nov 29, 2011 4:14 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Is Bobby really inconsistent, or is that just a product of Getzlaf’s inconsistency? Although then that poses the problem of Ryan not being able to create by himself, but that is essentially the role of a good centre. When Getzlaf is playing as well as he can, everyone on the ice for the Ducks is better.
I think that Hannan or White would be great fits, which is why I still wonder why Murray didn’t go after those guys. I think the core does work, but as we all know (especially from the 05-07 seasons), it’s your other players that complete your team; and unless we have those guys, I think we will always blame the ‘core’ guys we have. It would be a move in the right direction to acquire quantity pieces for Bobby, but I still think nothing changes the fact that those are the guys you add in FA and the ED, not by trading away one of your best players.
On another note, I really wish we had Brooks Laich. Just watching this re-invented Capitals team, and he is such a great leader and player. I would have thrown oodles of cash at him this off-season if I was Murray.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Ok, seriously now, I was distracted by a Bobby Ryan Brooks Laich trade. If you’re talking inconsistency in terms of production, then I suppose you could blame the set-up man. I think my beef with Bobby is that he really can’t decide how he wants to play the game. Perry has a good shot, but he knows he makes his money in the crease, so he goes there, and he stays there. I like watching Bobby do his best Teemu Selanne impression and streak in for a wrist shot, but the dirty goals are the ones that matter. Look where he was when he scored against Chicago, in the paint.
Every now and then you have to move a good player to get what you’re lacking. That’s the essence of an asset. If that price is legit, then the Ducks should seriously consider moving him.
That’s true in terms of inconsistency of ‘ice position’ or ‘scoring position’. I remember the first time I ever really started to warm up to Bobby (I was super mad because of the #9 thing. Only one guy should ever wear that number..), was when he scored that goal around the crease against SJ in the WCQF, 08-09. That’s really when I started to take notice of him.
But it seems like it’s just not in his player DNA to go around the crease and score. And although it seems obvious that that type of play could be a slump-buster, it’s very few and far between that we see Bobby in Corey’s position. So I guess if he’s not playing smart, and not producing consistently, trade him, but I just think we may end up regretting it for some reason.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Just want to note that if Bobby does end up getting traded, he will be the last Burke first round pick that is jettisoned from the organization.
2005 – Bobby
2006 – Mark Mitera (Horrible! Claude Giroux anyone? Patrik Berglund? Milan Lucic?)
2007 – Logan MacMillan (Just plain awful.)
2008 – Jake Gardiner (You know the story.)
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Bob McKenzie just said on TSN Radio 1050 that the reported asking price for Bobby Ryan is:
Top 6 Centre
Top 4 Defenseman
1st Round Pick
Prospect
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Not bad. I think that’s a good price, depending on the actual players.
by Daniel AC on Nov 29, 2011 4:16 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
It’s a good, steep price, and I like the fact that Murray has said what he is looking for instead of making a “knee-jerk reaction” for two plays and a pick.
This also does a good job of weeding out teams who can’t pay the price, and we are left with only the really good proposals – and Toronto.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Stanley Cup of Chowder just proposed a deal centered around Krejci. I’d prefer one centered around Lucic or Seidenberg.
Krejci wouldn’t be bad, and I would also add Tuuka Raask to that. And instead of Seidenberg, add Dougie Hamilton whose talent and work ethic could probably hide the fact that Carlyle would stunt his development.
This is a ‘Kings Ransom’ from Boston, but that’s really what we need from any team. And Raask provides us good depth behind Hiller if he, a) continues being awful, and b) if Ellis decides to leave next year.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
We aren’t getting Rask. He’s their goalie of the future when Thomas retires in 2 years. I’d much rather have Seidenberg’s experience. He played so well in the playoffs last year. Imagine a D in two years that features, Shultz, Seidenberg, Fowler, Sbisa, a discounted Beauchemin and maybe Mat Clark. That would be nice…
I suppose you’re right about Raask, and I completely forgot about John Gibson.
And I would love Seidenberg, but Dougie Hamilton is as much of a Pronger clone as you could get. He would be an amazing compliment to Fowler or Schultz in the future. That’s somebody I could get excited about.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
What would you think of that Karlsson kid? Assuming Ottawa wanted to part ways….
He's fancy. He'll go glove.
I doubt Ottawa is in the running. Karlsson isn’t someone they would want to part with, and apart from Cowen, I don’t really see anyone I think would fit on the Ducks.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
“Top 6 Centre
Top 4 Defenseman
1st Round Pick
Prospect”
Thant would be an amazing return. To me though we lose if we don’t get someone like Shea Weber or Shea himself. Everything else is just a lesser evil/good…
I’m still amazed there isn’t a goalie in that mix. Maybe that’s what the prospect would be.
Ah true, forgot about Bobkov. Last time I saw him play, he shutout Canada in the WJC gold medal game…. Sad day that was.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
He is starting to come along. He got a few game in SYR at the end of last year and played well. If we didn’t get Tarkki and JD this year, he would be playing. We told him to go back for one more to keep the ice time spread out. He will be in SYR next year and push for the job although Tarkki owns it right now.
by Newport Rebel on Nov 29, 2011 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
By the way guys and gals
I dont think Murray will get taken if he ends up dealing Bobby. The Lups trade put him back in the spot light with fans and his trading ability. If he gets taken to the cleaners again, then the fans (not just the ones around here) will be calling for his head infront of Samuli’s home ( Ill be there as well). As much as we make fun of him around here, he isn’t stupid and knows that his ass is on the line if he moves a fan fav like Ryan. Ryan sells jerseys, Ryan sells tickets. Ryan gets babies named after him. Murray knows this (well except maybe that last part)
I agree with everything you said Reb. Especially since he isn’t going in here blind. The man actually knows what he wants now, it’s just a matter of choosing the best deal to suit the team and the farm. As long as he brings in useful personnel, and good prospects, then I don’t think he will have to worry about the fans wanting his head. If he doesn’t on the other hand, then…
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I just want to state for the record
That all of the Bobby trade talk thoroughly depresses the fuck out of me. I’m not saying that it couldn’t turn out well but I really think Bobby is a special talent that would haunt us for years if we trade him. He’s also better with the fans than almost anyone on the team and the Ducks are going to need that guy when Teemu hangs them up.
If Murray trades Bobby, he’d better get a king’s ransom in return. That guy is much more valuable to this franchise than just being a stud forward.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 29, 2011 5:41 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I think the same thing. I remember when the Ducks came here this year in early January, and Teemu, George and Cam showed up for a public signing, while Bobby did a private signing for the same store. I got my Ryan jersey signed, and it was really nice for him to do, especially for fans from a fanbase he really didn’t know. He’s always great on Twitter responding to fans, and what I really think is great about him is that he is one of the few young guys that actually takes accountability for what he does on the ice during interviews.
I will miss Bobby if he is traded, that’s for sure.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
This franchise did just fine when Paul Kariya, the eternal recluse, was the most famous player. Fans still went to games. Bobby isn’t Teemu. Even if he is that special player, I don’t see him becoming that player here. I think that’s the key part of the discussion. Maybe, maybe, Bobby is as amazing as you believe he is. But, I don’t think the way we play here is going to lead him to the path to being that player.
Wait, totally off-topic from the Bobby Ryan stuff, but I always hear the same stuff about PK being an a-hole to fans. Is that true? How was he the “eternal recluse”? Maybe I should stop carrying his hockey card in my wallet…
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
He just wasn’t a very social person. The guy didn’t have a ton of personality. He liked to keep himself to himself. He showed up and smiled, but he didn’t go out of his way to be accommodating. I didn’t get to meet him in person, back then I never could afford to go to fan activities, so all of this is hearsay. He was a really introverted guy, but Anaheim fans still loved him, he was our star player.
Hm, interesting. That’s amazing since it sounds like the complete opposite of Teemu. I guess they really were ying and yang in a lot of different ways.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
It’s true. i really wish the fan I am now could have watched Kariya and Selanne play. I get the sense I’ll never see anything like that again.
You certainly won’t get it from a Randy Carlyle team; he just won’t allow it to happen. They played with speed and grace and creativity – I watched them. And these are all of the things that Carlyle’s system stifles.
To be fair
If it applies to us, it applies to you.
Even if he is that special player, I don’t see him becoming that player here. I think that’s the key part of the discussion. Maybe, maybe, Bobby is as amazing as you believe he is. But, I don’t think the way we play here is going to lead him to the path to being that player.
We’re both working off our own beliefs and theories here. That doesn’t make either of them right or wrong.
I’d rather not take the risk on letting this kind of talent leave the team. His points have gone up every year, despite not getting top-unit PP time. Dude may be inconsistent, but he has shown improvement year-to-year. It seems reasonable to think that he could continue to get even better, especially if given more opportunities. I just don’t think trading him right now is a good move unless we get blown away by the return.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 29, 2011 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
As farfetched and stupid as this sounds, Getzlaf and Perry seem to be a detriment to Ryan. They (by they, I mean Getzlaf) go out there and set an example by loafing around, waiting for the puck and not back-checking. Bobby gets the impression that that is the type of play it takes to win, so I’m sure he thinks it’s fine. Almost like Semin is rubbing off on Ovechkin too much, Getzlaf seems to be doing the same to Bobby.
I sort of wish the NHL had a loan system so we could watch Bobby go to a contender and spread his wings a bit, become really good, get experience, and then come back to Anaheim and dominate fools on the ice. Wouldn’t that be amazing.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I’ll say this. The only time Bobby has ever been able to be on a line that scored, that didn’t involve Saku Koivu and Dan Sexton is…never. He’s never been able to fully step out of the shadow of the twins. He gets moved up and down the depth chart, but, except for the one time with Koivu and Sexton, hasn’t been able to anchor his own scoring line for along stretch. I don’t see how this kid is going to emerge as a franchise changing player when it’s pretty clear that the franchise players are Getzlaf and Perry. He’s always going to be behind them here, regardless of point totals. Put him on the top PP unit, and we can see if he can imitate Teemu Selanne. Right now Selanne can’t imitate Selanne on that unit, so I suppose anything is fair game.
The most important question isn’t whether or not you’re right. It’s whether or not you’re wrong. Because if you’re wrong, his value will only go down. The potential is what makes the price high. If we sit on it for a while, we won’t get the necessary return.
He gets moved up and down the depth chart, but, except for the one time with Koivu and Sexton, hasn’t been able to anchor his own scoring line for along stretch.
Can you point out an extended period of time in the past three years where he had that option? Because outside of playing with Sexton and Koivu, I don’t think Bobby has ever played more than three to five games without the twins. Kind of hard for him to get the time to anchor his own scoring line if he’s constantly being jerked around the lineup.
And I seem to remember him and Perry doing just fine when Getzlaf went down last year. Hell, I don’t even remember who was playing with them during that time. But let’s not act like Bobby needs both of the twins to succeed. He doesn’t.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 29, 2011 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
Forgot to mention
When he was paired with Koviu and Selanne this season, they were by far the team’s most dangerous line during those stretches. Bobby can succeed without the twins. I think the plan (before this disastrous start to the season) has been for Bobby to anchor the second line once Teemu leaves. I still think that’s a good idea that will pay off in spades.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 29, 2011 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
He clearly needed at least one of them, when he was playing with Perry. Koivu was a driving force for that line with Sexton. Let’s also not pretend he’s done amazing things on his own, because he hasn’t. He has ALWAYS had established players to play with. As such, you can’t say what he can do on his own.
As for anchoring the second line, that’s exactly why Bobby is so tradeable. We don’t need him to anchor that second line. DSP and Etem will do it for less money. Get the twins a cheaper option up front, trade Bobby for defensive and forward depth, and the team will be better overall next year.
Two things
As such, you can’t say what he can do on his own.
And yet, just above that you said
He gets moved up and down the depth chart, but, except for the one time with Koivu and Sexton, hasn’t been able to anchor his own scoring line for along stretch.
So which is it? He doesn’t produce when he’s by himself or we can’t know what he can do on his own. Seems to me that these can’t both be true.
DSP and Etem will do it for less money.
They might be able to in a few years, but there’s no way they will for the next two years. DSP hasn’t exactly lit it up this season. I know he’s getting limited minutes, but he’s not finishing the chances he’s getting. Parros, McMillan, and Macenauer have better points per 60 minute ratings this year.
I’m thrilled that Etem is tearing up Junior, but it’s Junior. Kyle Palmeiri has owned the AHL lately and it hasn’t translated to NHL success yet.
If you’re going to denigrate Bobby’s production, I don’t see how you can simultaneously project success for DSP and Etem. Bobby has a track record at the NHL level. Etem and DSP do not.
by PhantomPretender on Nov 29, 2011 7:41 PM PST up reply actions
Ummm…I think you just quoted me out of context on that first one. The entire sentiment is here.
He has ALWAYS had established players to play with. As such, you can’t say what he can do on his own.
I introduce the idea that you could say he anchored the Koivu line as the scorer, but he did it with an established player. I don’t see a contradiction there. I can say he was an anchor, but I can also say he was able to anchor only because of a veteran presence on his line. In that instance, we still wouldn’t know what he would do without that veteran presence. As I say, he has ALWAYS played with established players.
First, I didn’t denigrate Bobby’s production. You could say I qualified it with the caveat that he’s always had the security of an established NHL player, However, if I was denigrating it, then I can denigrate Bobby’s production and project success for the others because of Perry and Getzlaf. When we won the Cup, they were in their second NHL seasons, and produced without the benefit of a veteran presence. Besides, once Teemu is gone, why does this team need to win the Cup that year. They’ll be there; they’ll learn on the job, and they’ll be fine. Meanwhile the return from trading Bobby Ryan will solidify other parts of the linup while they find the scoring touch. Also, I didn’t say anything about Palmieri.
Finally, for the DSP numbers, so what? The kid’s been a little unlucky recently, but he will start cracking the score sheet. It is going to come. My belief in that isn’t any less warranted than your belief that Bobby will be an elite player instead of a good one someday.
Honestly I think anyone would be hard pressed to find players that produce WITHOUT at least 1 established player playing with them. When Ryan played 3rd line before there wasn’t anyone else with him. He produced with Koivu and Sexton, he produced Perry and McMillan/Bonino/Koivu. It’s not like Getzlaf or Perry’s production doesn’t take a hit when Ryan leaves the line. It will be interesting to see if Ryan can produce with Hagman on the 3rd line.
As for PPG production during the cup year, that is a line made up of 2 future superstars and a player that really could have thrived had he stayed. You can’t say we have any players in our system like that, save for Etem, Palmeiri may fit as well.
In theory, Bobby is that superstar player and should have been able to give us that depth, no?
by Daniel AC on Nov 30, 2011 7:49 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
If you a referring to Ryan making up the two superstar line with a player like Etem or Palmeiri, I don’t ever remember them getting a chance to play together. Getzlaf and Perry had the added bonus of being able to play together before they came to the Ducks. I just don’t buy that any “superstar” should have the ability to produce all on his own. I question that Getzlaf and Perry could do so without one of the other Parts of RPG.
IMO a superstar is a player who make those around him better. It’s hard to argue that Perry and Getzlaf aren’t because of Beleskeys production that one year up with them, Or Selanne and what he has done for the second line. With Ryan I argue he still makes other players better. As evidenced by the Koivu Sexton line a few years ago.
I will agree that at least Geztloaf is a detriment. Last year, after being jerked around allthru the lineup, Bobby had a huge slump in the fall. He didn’t start to really produce until after Getzlaf went down with the face injury. I watched for weeks how the twins didn’t even seem to be looking for Ryan, but only for each other, even to the extent that they would make a pass to a covered Getzlaf/Perry while ignoring an open Bobby. After the injury, Bobby and Perry had to step it up, which they did. Bobby’s production increased immediately, but it took 3 weeks for Perry to figure it out. Bobby’s early production in that stretch was promulgated mostly by defensemen; soon Perry caught on and both were clicking.
This year I’m seeing the same thing – looking for Bobby seems to be an afterthought. Daniel will say that this is because Bobby doesn’t go to the net, but I say they’re not making accommodation for him as part of the line – they’re not really trying to work with him; Perry did, bot not Perry and Getzlaf. He therefore takes the low road that his linemates have taken, and the line suffers for it.
Perry and Getzlaf have a game that works. They are the big guns on that line, not Bobby Ryan. He needs to adjust his play to that line, not the other way around.
It’s a line on a hockey team, not a relationship. When Rucchin used to play between Kariya and Selanne, they didn’t adapt their game to him. He did what needed to be done for that line to succeed.
Is that why LW on this line has been a revolving door except for Bobby, who can make some stuff happen anyway?
I think that just means he shouldn’t have as much trouble adapting.
by Daniel AC on Nov 30, 2011 7:52 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Just perusing other SBN blogs for Bobby Ryan stuff.
Blueshirt Banter (NYR) said they should offer: “Michael Del Zotto for Cam Fowler”.
:::Facepalm:::
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
They had their shot. Hope McIlrath works out for them.
by Newport Rebel on Nov 29, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
I posted this in the other thread.
HockeyBreak says Bob Murray was at the Sabres game tonight.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
At least trawling hockeysfuture for potential trade partnerships has led me to the following article, sounds like our guys are tearing it up in Juniors. Rackell and Gibson in particular are playing way above where they were projected, obviously Etem is Etem and I like the sound of Wellinski’s potential as well.
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/13459/junior_pool_for_anaheim_ducks_rife_with_highend_talent/
They have us the #9 team in hockey in terms of prospects, which is way above where I’d have thought we would be ranked.
For all my criticism of Murray, early indications are he put together two incredible draft classes the last two years.
Haha, I’m also going through Hockeys Future, it’s so useful. And I also saw we are 9th. I expected us to be 15-19 or something like that. Turns out we have a pretty good farm system.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Say what you will about Murray
But he’s actually managed to put together a lot of talent, both prospects and guys on the current roster. And before Daniel comes in and says something about how thats all McNabbs doing…its not. A GM makes the decisions on who to draft, McNabb merely consults and scouts, granted he is very good at that. But any GM is a very active part of drafts and scouting.
Which is why it’s too bad Murray hasn’t gathered the talent that Carlyle needs to succeed. They are a very good pair when they are both working with each other, but over the last few years they seem to be doing the opposite. Maybe Murray will trade Ryan for the no.1 Dman and defensive center Carlyle needs. Maybe Carlyle will finally learn to make necessary adjustments to make sure this team plays to their strengths. Personally I don’t see any of that happening. Instead, the team’s personnel will probably continue to move farther from our Coach’s needs until either a massive fire sale ensues or Carlyle is let go. It’s too bad, somewhere out there is a GM for Carlyle and a coach for Murray, it’s just that they are stuck together and so ignorantly bliss about it all.
by Kevin Riach on Nov 29, 2011 10:01 PM PST up reply actions
Kevin, did you catch what Aaron Ward of TSN had to say about Carlyle earlier today on #WardosWorld? Apparently when Ward was here, he couldn’t wait for it to end…
Link: http://watch.tsn.ca/clip576927#clip576927
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Well that’s hardly reassuring. It’s one thing when it’s Lupul who clearly has an agenda but the fact that an old pro like Ward is saying that makes me take it a bit more seriously.
by bhlloy on Nov 29, 2011 10:55 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
We can’t forget that Morrison had things to say about our “system” after he left too. Wish I could find that quote. Remember that prospect early this year? Wonder what Wiznewski or Whitney may have to say, or Ruutu, Lapierre, Winchster…
Beyond that, I wonder what a guy like Doug Weight or Marc-Andre Bergeron would say if someone were to interview them off the record. I say those two because I think they were two of the Ducks that played for the most different teams before and after Anaheim.
It’s interesting we see this trend though. Definitely not “reassuring” like bhlloy said.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Newton was the prospect. I’m not sure which Morrison you are talking about so I can’t help ya there. Oh Lapierre, poor poor Lapierre. Traded here, plays very well, then essentially gets traded so Carlyle can play Winchester. God that was a terrible move.
The worst part for me about RC is that I just don’t understand what he expects from players. What did Lapierre have to do in order to stay or get minutes? Why did Holland get sent down the day after his first goal (on his first shot!!!!!)? Why do players like Beleskey get rewarded 1st line minutes, but Macenauer can’t buy 3rd line minutes? WHY ISNT SBISA PLAYING IN THE TOP PAIR?
by Kevin Riach on Nov 30, 2011 12:04 AM PST up reply actions
Brendan Morrison I’m pretty sure.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
And I totally forgot about Newton. What was his beef again? The coaches wanted him to play differently than he liked?
Maybe Crunch plays are playing horribly intentionally to not get called back up. They probably take turns going on hot streaks to cold streaks so it looks like they lack consistency.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Newton
He said that they kept wanting him to be a “defensive defenseman” vs utilizing his offensive talents…So they trade that tiny offensive defenseman from Colorado. Btw why hasn’t he got called up?
by Kevin Riach on Nov 30, 2011 12:12 AM PST up reply actions
WOW
Thanks for sending this my way. I didn’t get a chance to see it until now, but this reaffirms what I’ve always believed. I think there is a serious disconnect between Carlyle and the players (contrary to what Teamu says). This especially reaffirms my belief that Carlyle is terrible for a team as young as this roster. It should be about fun, Its hockey for god’s sake. I’m not surprised to say Ward say what he said, Carlyle has always been a “tough as nails coach” vs a “player’s coach”. The problem is that everyone of those coaches has a “life span” before the message is lost and all the yelling and screaming losses its effect. If you don’t believe me read some of the stuff Hitchcock said when he was hired about having to change his coaching style to today’s game. We need a Blymsa, a coach who can be honest with players, treat them like equals, and teach them to be better players. I don’t know who that is, but I know its not Randy Carlyle.
by Kevin Riach on Nov 29, 2011 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously eh...
I don’t know how much more crystal clear it can get. The entire team has essentially quit unless the player has had worse coaches (Teemu, Perry) or is fighting for a roster spot (DSP, Mace, et al).
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
I would argue even Perry has given up on him. He plays for himself, not the coach. Its so sad to see guys like Macenauer and DSP not progressing. I feel like the only players who get better here are the ones who seek outside help (I believe both Perry and Fowler both saw outside people over the offseason and did private training to get better). I worry that our talent will continue to be wasted due to Carlyle’s stupid coaching tendency of playing any veteran over young guys.
by Kevin Riach on Nov 30, 2011 12:10 AM PST up reply actions
Man, this conversation is so disheartening now since it’s all come back in perspective with Wards “reassuring” comments. If Carlyle stays, we are wasting the primes of some players. All these years for the young guys are way too important to be wasted with some hack like Carlyle.
And at the same time, poor Teemu. I’m sure he came back because he felt sorry that no one wanted to play for Carlyle and is doing it for the fans and organization so they aren’t disappointed.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
It's the system . .
I’m not sure we can find the talent thet Carlyle needs to succeed. The game has gone past him. The game is much faster than when he played, and I think it requires a good transition game to be successful. Grinding it out for 30 seconds in the offensive zone without getting even a shot leaves the forwards down inside the goal line and too tired to backcheck. We don’t backcheck at all, and that gives the other team an opportunity to set up and get scoring chances while we’re still trying to recover the zone.
Carlyle’s been given time enough to make his system work. It hasn’t. It’s time for him to take stock of the assets he has, including Bobby Ryan, and find a way to take advantage of them.
I agree. I’m actually believe that we have the talent to compete in this league at a very high level. You see an abundance of scorers like Etem and Palmieri on other teams who are succeeding so I don’t know why they aren’t given a shot here.
The Ducks honestly need to take a serious look at replacing Carlyle. We can’t move players from this foundation because they aren’t motivated. That’s the job of the coach, and if he can’t do that for some very good NHL talent, then he doesn’t deserve to be in the NHL. We should be winning with our guys.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
Actually Madden has been running the draft boards
But I get what you are saying.
by Newport Rebel on Nov 30, 2011 12:01 AM PST up reply actions
My bad
Sorry about that. Why is everyone calling for McNabb to become new GM then?
by Kevin Riach on Nov 30, 2011 12:06 AM PST up reply actions
Cause he would make an awesome GM
He does still scout all the college kids and his word is gold to Murray and Madden. McNab knows this organization inside and out (hell he has been here since day 1) and has the skills to be a GM. Even though he has cut his scouting duties back over the years, he is still one of the best.
by Newport Rebel on Nov 30, 2011 12:13 AM PST up reply actions
If he’s been around that long, and is thought of highly, I would think he’s already made the decision to not to be a GM. Some people are happy where they are.
by Kevin Riach on Nov 30, 2011 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
Question..
Don’t we have Troy Bodie? Why isn’t he ever called up. If I remember correctly, RC used to like him.
"That might've been a little push, but that was a major flop. That would make Vlade Divac very proud." - Jerry Reynolds
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