Should the Ducks Reconsider Moving Bobby Ryan?
Let me preface this by saying that this post will not be about whether or not Bobby Ryan is a good player. On the contrary, this post assumes that Bobby is a very good player and is going to get paid. I know I'm the resident Bobby hater, but I did my best to take an unbiased approach to this; however, I believe there's no such thing as a purely unbiased approach. I focused all of my arguments on things that have almost nothing to do with him.
Unless you were living under a rock a last week, you remember when there was huge buzz that the Ducks might move Bobby Ryan. Instead, they fired Randy Carlyle in an attempt to get the season going in the right direction. I've said before that I think the Ducks made the right decision, primarily because Murray didn't seem interested in getting the players Randy needed. The argument has been made that Murray has been hampered by an internal cap, and therefore has been unable to build a truly consistent and competitive team. I think this is exactly the reason the Ducks need to consider the possibility that they can't hold on to Bobby Ryan.
The reason I'm writing this post is because I think a lot of the discourse about whether or not to move Bobby has focused more on his merits as a player. I'm beginning to think that's only part of the problem. I have three main points that I will go through in order of importance: Affording the player, Bobby's value, and helping the team this year.
Where's The Money?
The first thing to consider is whether or not the Ducks are going to be able to afford Bobby Ryan. On the surface, this seems like a no-brainer. Jason Blake, Saku Koivu, and Teemu Selanne come off the books this summer. Francois Beauchemin will probably come back for less money. Lubomir Visnovsky and Toni Lydman only have one more season a piece on their deals. Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry are going to get raises. Let's make a conservative estimate of one million. When Bobby goes UFA after this contract, let's say he get a one million raise too. That's 3 million towards an internal budget that may or may not go much higher than the 56 million it's already at. Three million is a huge hit for a team on an internal budget. That's like giving up a veteran defenseman for nothing.The Ducks would be devoting almost 1/3 of their payroll to one line of players.
Of course, that's not the real problem. When the twins go UFA, Cam Fowler will go RFA. That kid is going to get a raise, especially if Boudreau turns him into a West Coast Mike Green. Luca Sbisa's current contract is up the same year that Bobby Ryan will be going UFA, and he'll be getting a raise too. Let's not forget that Justin Schultz is tearing it up at Wisconsin this year, leading the Badgers in points as a defenseman. If he comes out this year, his entry level deal will be done the same year that Bobby Ryan goes UFA. I hope we are starting to see this trend. Schultz, Sbisa and Fowler could be a terrifying core if you can add a couple of physical defenseman to that mix, maybe a Beauchemin at 2.5M and someone else. Unfortunately, those three are probably going to cost you in the neighborhood of 12 million, if we're lucky. That means, if the Ducks sign Bobby at that 1 million raise, they'll be spending about 30 million on a top line, and 3 defenseman. Mix in a goalie at 4 million and the Ducks have almost 2/3 of their cap gone, with only 1/3 of their roster filled. I'm not saying you don't have to pay for talent because you do. I'm just not sure the Ducks can afford it
Emerson Etem will come out of Juniors next year, and will likely make the roster. That means he gets a new contract the same summer Bobby goes UFA. If he explodes, it could be a substantial raise. Devante Smith-Pelly will get a new contract the summer before Bobby gets his new deal, and while I'm sure it won't be substantial, it will be more money than he's making now, closer to the 1.75-2M range. Peter Holland will be getting a new deal the same summer that DSP gets one and the Ducks better hope it's not a big one. Let's say that line costs about 8 million, although, I'm hoping Etem - I can't believe I'm saying this - copies Bobby Ryan with three 30-goal seasons to start, driving that total up. That leaves about 14 million for the bottom 6, the last 3 defenders, a back up goalie, the 7th defenseman and the 2 extra forwards. That's certainly doable, but we've already seen what a lack of depth has done to the Ducks. Defensive forwards can sometimes be pricey. I haven't even talked about what's going to happen to Kyle Palmieri who is starting to light up the AHL. Moving Bobby will give the Ducks more financial freedom, or at least, allow them to spend his money on two good players instead of one very good player. Sometimes depth is more important.
Bobby's Value
I don't think Bobby's value is going to get much higher than it is now. He has a good stat line, good size, and a decent contract that has him locked up for the next three seasons after this one. This will be the only time I talk about Bobby's play. He's been good, but not great. He has a very solid stat line that's very appealing. He isn't Sidney Crosby. He hasn't looked like a once in a generation player. He's looked like a slightly streaky scorer who will get you 30 goals every year, and 70 points. That's solid. It's not amazing; it's solid.
What makes Bobby such a hot commodity is that no one knows if he'll take the next step. There's a chance he could reach the levels of Perry and Getzlaf, but he might not. To be fair, nobody knows. As a result, you can make suitors pay for potential. More importantly, Murray doesn't HAVE to move Bobby yet. Even if other GMs try to strong arm him into a deal under the premise that he won't be able to afford Bobby later, he can say that he has time to think about it. Other GMs are going to want to get him with those three full seasons left and try to get value. Someone WILL overpay to have him. There's a distinct possibility that the Ducks can get a quality forward, a young defenseman and a first round pick for Bobby, which is a pretty great return. Of course, Bobby could also be used as bait for a bigger prize.
Bobby has tons of value to the 29 other teams in the league, and as the season wears on there will be a bidding war. However, a key to that value is the three years left on his contract. Moving him now preserves that value. Granted, moving him with two years or even one left would still be valuable, but I think getting three full seasons is very appealing. Arthur used to harangue me to keep in mind how many years are left in a deal when examining the movement of restricted free agents. Well, these are the years we earned with Bobby's restricted free agency. We should get maximum value for them. More importantly, as the years go by, that question about potential is going to get answered, and you'll no longer be able to ask people to pay for that potential.
As I said before, Murray doesn't have to move Bobby now, which means he can sit on the best offer. But, if we reach the end of his deal and he thinks he has to move Bobby before Bobby walks, then there's a chance we might not get good value for Ryan in a deal.
This Can Help Teemu:
This is my most biased argument. I've been in the camp of changing the team to help Teemu Selanne and this move could do exactly that. It could also make the Ducks better going forward. I haven't put a lot of thought into potential deals, but I love the idea of getting a package from Washington centered around Brooks Laich and featuring Alzner, Carlsson or Schultz. Alright, Schultz is probably too expensive, but it would be nice. I also love the idea of packaging him off to Nashville for Weber, who might be willing to get a young forward with years in exchange for an RFA they think they can't afford. Weber, might make one of the other young D expendable, or at least reduce the need for as much scoring up front.
Moving Bobby would, provided a good deal is made, improve the depth of the team, and, in theory, it's overall competitiveness. That would make it possible to make a run now, but those pieces might also improve depth going forward.
The money is going to be tight. Sbisa and Fowler might be closer to 5 million dollar defenders by the time Bobby goes UFA. I suppose this post is really more of a warning that we have to start looking more long term when considering what we are going to do with contracts. To me, the Ducks might have to choose between Bobby and the Twins. Getting Getzlaf and Perry as a package might drive down the price, but will it be cheap enough to keep Bobby? I suppose I am borrowing trouble, considering some of these players might not get sufficient raises, but I think it's something that needs to be discussed. The Ducks are going to have to figure it out one way or another. If the Ducks insist on keeping Bobby, they might be able to afford him, but it might keep the team from having the necessary depth to make deep runs in the playoffs.
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Nice post
You bring up some really salient points, especially when it comes to the money situation in a few years.
I think the big unknown in all of this is how much Murray consults Boudreau about the construction of the team moving forward. Murray didn’t appear to be on the same page as Carlyle, but who knows how much they communicated about the gameplan for the team.
If Murray involves Boudreau, I don’t see Bobby being moved until the offseason at the earliest (if a deal is ever made). I think BB will want the ability to fully assess his assets before deciding who he might want to part with. And if BB is allowed to provide input, it would be interesting to see who he would keep out of the top 3 (I think its completely possible to keep Perry without Getzlaf).
Then again, it’s entirely likely that Murray will just do whatever the hell he wants. At any rate, the Ducks will either have part with one of the big three at some point or convince the Samuellis to give them some additional spending flexibility.
by PhantomPretender on Dec 9, 2011 7:33 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Trading a 30+ goal scorer is never easy. But we definitely need the depth and looks like we’ll need the financial flexibility. I just don’t know if I trust Bob Murry enough to not get screwed. I would prefer we flip him and one of our promising young defense men for Weber. I don’t like the idea of flipping him for spare parts and picks.
I think the X factor in this really is Murray. Bobby is a terrific asset that a GM can really use to improve depth or get a better impact player, like Weber. Personally, I don’t know if I trust Murray to make the best trade, and that makes me glad he hasn’t moved him yet. But, I wonder what will happen going forward, because the money issue surprised me. That was the core point of the post. If the players we have end up getting PAID, keeping him might be hard to do.
by Daniel AC on Dec 9, 2011 8:00 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
You Beat Me To It
The only issue you would address by acquiring Weber is helping this season (which is all but lost anyway) Weber makes more money than Bobby does (or will after his UFA raise) and doesn’t add depth, especially if you get rid of one of the defense prospects to get him. Plus he’s on a one year deal with one year of RFA after this and he’s clearly looking for big money or a Cup, neither of which I see the Ducks being able to offer him within the next five years or so. It would be awesome to have the best defenseman in the league, but I don’t see how it fits into your argument.
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I think Weber is a better overall asset than Bobby. If you let him sign an offer sheet, you get four first round picks. If you pay him, you slightly decrease the need for defensive depth. Weber has played us, and ge think he knows that he probably makes us a Cup contender. Let’s be real, he was shutting down the twins and they still out up points in that series. We got beat on team D and depth, and that’s it.
The money IS a problem, but Weber makes other players expendable, an I think that can help solve that problem.
by Daniel AC on Dec 9, 2011 8:30 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
i really like your post Daniel, especially the part about the lively intern cap debate ;-)
but i do have to disagree with your trade targets.
i would go for youth and picks, after all, we are in rebuilt mode, and i don’t think that it is necessary to boost this years team just to pleasen Teemu.
i don’t think Weber is a valid target either, i don’t think there is any chance that we could resign him after his RFA year (i really really think he will end up in Detroit as the new Lidstrom).
We would have traded Ryan for one more year of Weber at the tradedeadline… not worth it.
however IF we could sign him beforehand / with that trade, i would absolutely love to have Weber on our roster. but i just don’t think it will ever happen.
The internal cap is really the problem. If the Ducks didn’t have one, I wouldn’t have written this. It simply wouldn’t be an issue.
I think the return is really about whether or not you feel the team needs to rebuild or if it’s having a bad year because there isn’t sufficient depth. I didn’t consider all possible returns; there was plenty of that during the trade buzz before Carlyle was fired. Still, I think Laich is an interesting option, if he can be pried away. That gives you Getzlaf, Holland and Laich up the middle with an array of lower priced wingers to put around them, plus Laich is the solid 2-way forward that this team desperately needs. Laich is also still pretty young.
Weber is a different story, I think he makes this team a viable contender and I wonder if he would like California. He’s seen the twins dominate, and maybe understands he’s the missing piece for a team that desperately needs a top defender. The more I watch Fowler, the more I think he’s not really that guy. Again, it’s a bit of a long shot, but I think Weber can be convinced. These guys played together on that Olympic roster. Think he might like that a little?
Finally, I’m open to lots of returns for Bobby Ryan, but I think it needs to be a hybrid deal: something that helps now and later.
It is entirely possible that ownership scrap the internal cap when it comes to this. They did spend up big when presented with an opportunity go for a cup (pronger, neids…)
Maybe they just currently dont see the make up of this squad as capable of doing that, and maybe in a couple years they change their minds and do spend.
by BennyLightning on Dec 9, 2011 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
Detroit
I think the wings will try but look at it this way.. If they sign him to an offer sheet that hurts Detroit in players and picks within the same conference.. I would be more worried about fowler after a few years of no lidstrom.. Fowler being a Michigan boy probably watched the wings growing up.. Less damage on an offersheet and hometown discount.. Just a possibility.. It would be awesome if we could land Weber but I don’t see it happening until the offseason..
by ShamuSalami on Dec 9, 2011 10:41 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I’m only a fan of trading Bobby if we get Weber and Lindback (although I don’t know how many years of cheap he is). Pretty much all other deals seem stupid to me.
Sell the team to Arte Moreno
And we can say goodbye to internal caps
Fight on!
EMAW!
AMEN
I brought this up yesterday. We can only hope that Arte decides to take over the Anaheim market completely, or that the Samuelis feel like they are being so out-done my Moreno in Anaheim that they start pouring more money into the team. It’d be the solution to all of our problems.
What? A man can dream, can’t he?
Used to go by "ramsrnumerouno" until I realized I only post about the Ducks...hooray hockey and Let's Go Ducks!!
by HatrickSwayze on Dec 9, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Nope. Why do you ask?
Used to go by "ramsrnumerouno" until I realized I only post about the Ducks...hooray hockey and Let's Go Ducks!!
by HatrickSwayze on Dec 9, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
No I do not play for them, I havn’t played on a competitive hockey for about 10 years. I have been using the name for my fantasy hockey teams, and I thought that it would make a good screen name.
Used to go by "ramsrnumerouno" until I realized I only post about the Ducks...hooray hockey and Let's Go Ducks!!
by HatrickSwayze on Dec 9, 2011 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
This cap is of our own making.
It is not about being out done, it is about profits and losses. The Angels and Ducks are apples to oranges. The Angels play twice as many games in a stadium that is over twice the size. They have also been in So Cal twice as long. Also their media deal is more than likely several times larger than the Ducks. That is how they are paying for Albert. It is not Moreno going into his own pocket. The problem with the Ducks is not the ownership. It is the lack of fan support that the Ducks have. The Ducks community is a great one but it is also a very small one. When was the last time any of us took a friend to their first hockey game at Honda? Usually we just go with our hockey friends and that is that. But we are not growing the fan base that way. Lately the Honda Center has been pretty empty or filled with opposing fans. Hell last year during the playoffs the place wasn’t sold out even after Perry pretty much shit on the entire NHL. The Samuelis are trying to grow the game in So Cal. Just look and all the Rinks popping up around the area. We as fans (me included) need to do our part and share our passion for Ducks hockey with our neighbors. Our neighbors to the north (both short and long distance) sell out most of their games. That is why they spend to the cap. In our Cup year, the ownership spent the money but only after the building was full. If we want to get rid of the cap, we need to more fans in the seats.
by Newport Rebel on Dec 9, 2011 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
I think it’s a painful cycle. Anaheim fans have shown they won’t show up for a marginal product. The owners have shown they won’t spend if fans don’t show up. It’s kind of a stand off that everyone loses.
Yeah but that is why the cap is in place. It limits the losses the Samuelis take to a few million per year. I agree that the cycle sucks. They are trying to grow the game by getting kids into hockey although it will take 20 years for it to pay off. the short term answer is for the fans to grow the base. The Ducks have some of the worlds best fans, they just dont have enogh of them.
by Newport Rebel on Dec 9, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
In SoCal the only way to fill those seats are to win. SoCal is filled with a bunch of bandwagon fans that will only spend the dough for tickets if the team is winning or has added some huge high-profile players that are one of a kind (i.e. Chris Pronger and Scott Niedermayer). I used to go to Angel games all the time before they won the world series and at times you could hear crickets chirping the place was so empty. I do agree with you that you cannot compare the Angels and Ducks, but I was not trying too in the first place I was just stating that Moreno has a ridiculous amount to spend. He should be hauling in so much money from his new TV deal (150 million annually) that I wish he could pour that into the Ducks and bring that Pronger/Niedermayer impact player (Shea Weber) here to get the fans excited and put their butts in the seats while they enjoy great, and almost guaranteed winning hockey. Imagine the commercials, and billboards outside of Honda Center with Weber, Getzlaf, and Perry.
Used to go by "ramsrnumerouno" until I realized I only post about the Ducks...hooray hockey and Let's Go Ducks!!
by HatrickSwayze on Dec 9, 2011 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
It should also be noted that when the ducks were spending to the cap it was significantly lower. This year’s salary floor is higher than the cap was in ‘05-’06. An increase in income would obviously help, but there’s no telling how much.
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@district5hockey on Twitter
by Chris D-5 on Dec 9, 2011 1:09 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think you are over valuing some of our players. I don’t see Sbisa ever becoming a 5 million dollar player. He certainly hasn’t proved anything to me thus far. Also, to think the AHL kids are going to have the same production in the big league, is a little far fetched. (especially Etem)
Weber is a world class player and deserves every penny he gets but if you are so concerned with the internal budget, wouldn’t paying him up to 8 mill/yr be a little dangerous when an MVP/RocketWinning/Cup winner wants his dues?
If those kids don’t evolve into players of that level, we are probably still going to have the same question: Keep Bobby or move him for depth?
Don’t get me wrong, your points are valid but the internal budget is what’s hurting us. If Murray can’t spend a little more on our depth then the problem will continue. This season is a clear indication of what happens when you rely too much on your young guns. The top line’s lack of productivity isn’t helping either.
Plus, Murray might have some other plans for this season. It seems like he’s not too concerned with the current state of the team. Why would we loan Smith-Pelley when he’s been hot of late? Doesn’t make much sense…
I agree about the internal budget, which is primarily why I wrote the post; it’s what will make this a potential problem.
Murray’s plans are tough to figure out. I’m guessing he moved DSP to make space for Kyle Palmieri to prove his meddle and then decide who goes in a month when Devo gets back.
Obviously, this makes our scouting department all the more valuable. They seem to have a penchant for skill, but I haven’t seen them make a good move with size or grit yet. Budget teams can be competitive if they draft well… We’ll see though players like Cramarossa, Dave Manson’s kid (Josh?) look to have some promise in those areas, but their far away…
What if Teemu retires?
Do you really want to see the Ducks without Selanne and Ryan? Trying to figure out when or if Teemu is going to retire puts the Ducks at a disadvantage as far as making future deals is concerned. I think this gives Ryan a little added value to the team because who else can step in and fill that roll? I think it makes more sense to deal Lubo and Blake. Lubo’s value goes up around playoff time because if a team is going to make a push it never hurts to have to a goal scoring defenseman on the powerplay. Blake could add veteran experience and depth to a playoff contender as well. Dealt separately or together they might be able to bring a decent defenseman to the Ducks.
That still won’t solve the long term problem of being able to afford Bobby. The premise of this piece is that when Bobby goes UFA the Ducks won’t be able to afford to bring him back. It might be tough to not have him next year, but the year after that when Etem, DSP, Holland and Palmieri are more developed, will missing him be that tough, at least from a statistical perspective?
You’re assuming that certain players will develop enough to fill Ryans spot but I don’t see these guys as anything but 3rd and 4th liners at best. That being the case they would be relatively cheap. I just hate the idea of giving up proven performers for potential performers. I would just rather see the Ducks dump payroll somewhere else and keep Ryan.
You think Etem, DSP, Holland, and Palmieri are third and fourth line players? Those are our first and second round selections from a couple of drafts ago. If we’re spending first round picks on guys who can’t play on the top two lines, we have a different problem than money issues.
I agree with Daniel here. Devo has shown that with time he is a confident fellow. I have seen growth on a losing, sloppy team that had me worried about his development. It’s interesting that because of this funk we may actually being seeing more of him then we would have at this point in the season.
Etem is arguably the best offensive player in juniors right now. No way he’s a fringe player.
You might be right on the other three although I think palmieri and holland have a high enough ceiling they might surprise you
by bhlloy on Dec 9, 2011 2:33 PM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think Holland has shown that his size and skill can play effectively at this level. Palmieri, I have yet to see that special stuff that I’d say he can be effective here too. I am not too sure how far away they both are from being up in the NHL or what not. But to me, Holland has much more upside. Palmieri just seems like he hasn’t found that way to bring his game to this level yet…
As for Etem, I’d argue that if he was playing this season he could easily equal Cogliano’s production. He in all likelihood will see him self playing 1st-3rd line minutes by next season.
So if I were a betting man, I’d definitely put my money on Holland and Etem…
i think some of you guys are waaaaaay overvaluing the tradevalue of guys like visnovsky and Blake.
Visnovsky after last season would have brought some nice pieces back, but no one besides me wanted to go in to rebuilt mode so ….
this season is a different story. you won’t get much from an aging struggling defencemen coming off the IR.
Blake has absolutely no value at all.
I may be beating a dead horse...
But why is Bobby the only player being considered here. Under the new system Getzlaf and Perry look lost. We talk about their production and what they did in the past as why we should keep them but honestly, can they reproduce that with BB? I feel Getzlaf in particular looks lost in this system. Maybe he can turn it around, maybe he can’t. So I’ll address some of the points of moving Getzlaf.
1) True #1 centers are hard to find. As true as this point is I do not buy how important that #1 center really is. I think everyone here will agree that our #2 line has taken over the #1 title. That line is centered by Koivu, who is no where near the calibur player that everyone seems to feel Getzlaf is. I think we should wait on any moves to determine if Getzlaf and Perry can turn around their games this season and thrive under BB.
2) Ryan is easier to move. I feel the only reason Ryan may be easier to move is that the rest of the league feels he has more potential. Getzlaf is a former 90 point center who has proven playoff abilities. As mentioned before, Good centers are hard to come by and if that is true teams should be lining up the the Getzlaf line. This should also increase his return.
3) Who fits better on THIS team. Getzlaf was a prototypical Carlyle player. Carlyle is no longer our coach. It has been said that Ryan will benifit the most from BB. Why should we move the players that BEST fit into the new system. Though considering Murray I can see this happening.
4) Internal cap. I see Getzlafs cap hit being closer to 7 mill than 6. Can we afford that with Perry at the same time anyway? If he got 7, Perry would likely get 7 and who are we to say they don’t deserve it. This means we would be putting Selannes entire Salary in to resigning two players. Where as Ryan will have another 2 years at affordable 5 mill.
I think you can keep the twins for less, if you keep the twins. Look at the Toews and Kane deals. Those guys are probably both worth more the 6.3 they get, but they took a little less to stay together. I think Perry and Getzlaf will do the same.
If you believe the early point totals then the player we should trade is Corey Perry. He only has two points in BB’s 4 games, compared to Getzlaf’s 3 and Bobby’s 4. The argument for Bruce improving Bobby the most is probably due to the idea that Carlyle’s system is hampering to him. I still think Getzlaf and Perry won’t be hurt by the new system. The amount of points may not be huge, but they are still producing. If the PP hadn’t gone stale again, those totals might be higher.
I suppose plenty of people would line up for Getzlaf, but he’s not locked up for three years, Bobby is. I think that seriously affects value. Three years of Bobby at this price, will outproduce one year of Getzlaf at his price. Therefore, Bobby should probably be considered the more valuable trade asset, although not necessarily the better player.
I did actually considered Perry as a moveable peice but ultimately decided against it. Basically Both Ryan and Perry have shown they can produce with other linemates. Getzlaf simple hasn’t. Not that he has had much opportunity to do so. It is also one of the reasons I would like to see BB break Getzlaf and Perry up onto two different lines and see what happens. Getzlaf did get a point with DSP and Ryan so you never know. It might just be a bit of Getzlaf and Perry have gotten too comfortable playing together.
As for the price, If Getzlaf got moved to a cap team they wouldn’t have the same worries about paying him. 1 year at 6 is not as good as 3 years at 5, true, but once you have him on the team you can give him the money he deserves in way of a contract extension, similar to how people were going after Brad Richards.
I kind of want to try different things. I wonder if we could just have Perry and Ryan together, and have like Bonino with them and see if Perry and Ryan can produce points like if Getzlaf was injured last year. And if Getzlaf is the great center he is, throw a couple other wingers and see if he can get a line to produce with great passes. Maybe DSP and Hagman or Palmieri. What do we have to lose.
no please not.
not the trade Getzlaf shit again.
I don’t know, but Getzlaf has points in the last games, he has 22 points in 26 games.
he allways was a point per game player the last years, and he will continue to be one.
he makes everybody around him better. just look at the crazy production explosion last season after Getzlaf returned in the lineup. i don’t think people give him enough credit for Perrys MVP season, but Getzlaf was a beast.
And belief me, he still is that player. He showed it against the Wild
the only problem is that YOU people see him as anaheims Sidney Crosby, who dominates most of the games he is in.
I don’t think the problem is Getzlaf, i think it’s the expectation everybody seems to have of him. Even at the end of last season, there were hundrets of posts complaining about Getzlaf.
Our second line is the most played line because the twins struggle. and who would have known, that’s the reason the ducks suck. We are the most top heavy team there is in this league, and if Perry and Getzlaf don’t win the games on their own, we loose. as simple as that.
Ryan is a streaky scorer, so comparing those 4 games isn’t a valid point to me.
We could trade Getzlaf, but i don’t think there is any team who could pay as much as he is worth, and besides we couldn’t fill the whole he would hit in this team.
Bonino is on the decline and is allready send back down, we have nothing close to a 2nd line center in the franchise (for years….) so i say Getzlaf is an absolute lock.
Perry is a scoring winger like Ryan, but Perry has proven time and time again that he will go in the dirty aeras and get punished for the goal. something Bobby refuses to do most of the time. I don’t even think that those two are on the same level, but that’s maybe just me.
Keeping Perry will likely keep us Getzlaf, and the other way round. They will most likely take another discount so that they could stay in Anaheim and play together.
1) Getzlaf has 22 points in 28 games and a wopping -12, Ryan has 16 points in 28 games and a -6. Yes a significant point difference till you consider that Getzlaf has 10 STP and Ryan has 2.
2) I never used the 4 game sample size as my justification. I even mentioned that no one should be moved till the players are given a chance to adapt to the system and coach.
3)The point explosion that you are refering to started when Getzlaf went OUT not when he got back.
4) If we don’t get what he’s worth its becuase the rest of the NHL doesn’t think he’s worth as much as we do. My whole point about the second line is that we don’t NEED a super star center to be successful. McDonald was never that and we wont the cup with him.
5) I think Bonino being sent down is more a symptom of BB trying to get to know what assests he has.
6) If they sign for a discount to play together that helps, but right now its just an if and one none of us can really be sure about and to build a team around that if isn’t exactly smart. For all we know Getzlaf may walk next summer after his contract and sign for 8 mill somewhere because hes already won everything so other than money what does he play for?
1) You’re making the assumption that Ryan would be just as productive on the top PP unit as Getzlaf, but they play very different games. I’m not sure Bobby would get the same points
3) No, there was a second point explosion that happened when Getzlaf got back. It’s not accident he averaged over a point a game…again.
4) That’s not always true. There are a lot of factors that drive down the value of players, like demanding trades, contract years left, and factors of the team trying to move the player i.e. can they still afford him. Every team is trying to not pay full price on every trade.
1) not really, With the assumpion that he can put in 20 pp poitns which is 2/3 of what the other top 4 in on the team he would still be around an 80 pt player.
3) If two players are playing well as Ryan and Perry were and you add a player of Getzlaf skill the points are likely to increase. My point is that he was not the catalyst of that point production but feeding on the momemtum of the other 2.
4) We don’t know the factors that may affect Getzlafs next contract so we should not low ball is price out of optimism. Would it be nice if he takes a discount? Absolutlely, but to go forward assuming he will is not smart business.
BTW I would like to point out that I have never said Getzlaf is a bad player, just that I contend that Ryan is not our only trade option.
I’ve also never said that Bobby was a bad player, just that he wasn’t as good as Getzlaf or Perry. I see your point, and it’s a fair one. However, I’ve watched too many Calgary games to think that trading Getzlaf was a good idea. I disagree that McDonald wasn’t a top line center. I think he was a solid 70-80 point center who was the perfect piece to scoring wingers like Selanne and Kunitz. If we still had McDonald, I’d be much more open to moving Getzlaf. McDonald’s career has been derailed more by injuries than talent. I just don’t want to see Perry and Ryan turn into Iginla.
2) Obviously we have to give them time, but the discussion is not about whether or not bobby is a bad player, but wether or not we can afford him.
3.) no that’s just not true, after Getzlaf returned, Perry had 42 points in 28 games, Ryans production has also exploded after Getzlaf returned.
4.) McDonald had a career year, i think he was a pretty solid first line center this year.
5.) i think Bonino sucked big time last game and is therefore send down
6.) Getzlaf and Perry are allready playing on a discount. they are the captains of the team, and both have adressed time and time again that they like it here in Anaheim.
There are way more points supporting the thesis that those 2 stay for a discount, then they will walk.
Daniel, if you consider 30 goals and 70 points to be solid, what exactly do you consider to be good? Is it Perry’s season last year?
These are the demands and sayings of tohon
I didn’t say it wasn’t good. I said it wasn’t amazing. I would consider solid and good to be the same thing. Again, you’re talking about a guy who has never been a point per game player, doesn’t consistently go to the net or play physical, and has shown a penchant for streaky scoring. He had two goalless streaks last year that reached double digits. He’s a very good player and people see potential for more. However, at this point it is only potential. Bobby will be a productive player for years to come, but I don’t know if he’ll ever cross that boundary into great.
I’d hate to put a number on it, because the line is a little more arbitrary, but guys who can consistently produce at around a point per game should be considered great. Bobby hasn’t reached that plateau yet, and with the way this season is going, probably won’t reach it this year.
I didn’t really want this to go this way, but last year Bobby was 21st in points, but 36th in P/G. Bobby is a very good player, but I don’t know if I’d classify him as great.
For the sake of argument lets look at last years numbrs for our top 4 players. They will be listed as Goals-Assists-Points-Special team Points
Perry: 50-48-98-36
Selanne: 31-49-80-34
Getzlaf: 19-57-76-27
Ryan: 34-37-71-11
If we look at Perry, Selanne, and Getzlaf, all had around 30 points on special teams, mostly PP but for Perry some PK points. Ryan had a third of that. if you assumethat he could put in 20-30 points on the PP if given top unit time (which wont happen with Selanne, and rightly so) That puts his production in the 80-90 point range.
Ryan was 21st last year in pts, everyone above him had 20-30 PP points with the exception of 2 players, Anze Kopitar only had 18 pp points but only 73 points total, and Claude Giroux had 19ppp with 76 points total. If Ryan has 10 more PPP last year he would have been 8 in the league in points and still would not have been near what the other guys put up on the PP.
My point is that when looking at a players potential and production I think even strength should be considered much more strongly then overall point production. if we do that last year totals look like this:
Perry: 62 points
Ryan: 60 points
Getzlaf 49 points
Selanne: 46 points
Now granted Getzlaf missed significant time, but my point stands that Ryan is just as productive Perry and Getzlaf
I can see that argument, you could also said that Ryan was shuffled around more and that 2 point difference could have been made up if he had been on the top line the whole season instead of being shuffled.
We won’t know until we see him on that unit. The biggest problem Ryan had when he first started working with the twins was that he didn’t like to share the puck. He’s gotten better, but if he sees all that PP space and decides he doesn’t need to move the puck until someone is on top of him, which I’ve seen him do, it might only hurt the PP unit.
Perry barely handles the puck on the PP. I’m sorry, but Ryan isn’t in the same league as Perry. Perry goes to dirty areas; he takes hits; he makes plays that no one on this team makes. He’s the only Duck to ever win the Hart. The guy is untouchable for the foreseeable future.
I would contend that he does that in even strength situations because he doesn’t have as many options. I’ve said on gamedays that the cycle collapses when no one goes to the front of the net. I think that happens a lot to Perry. He gets stuck with the puck behind the net and can’t do anything but wait.
What is your idea of great?
Gretzky in the 80s.
If you imagine a salt shaker in your hand, tilt your head back
and act like you're shaking salt into your mouth; you will taste salt if you concentrate hard enough.
That’s just unfair. Nobody will do that again.
by Daniel AC on Dec 10, 2011 9:20 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Haha, ducks are reconsidering on moving Ryan, but to Center. I think they should see how he fits in BB system before trading him, but keep our ears open if someone offers something good. I also think for now, we shouldn’t be shopping him right now, I don’t think it is good when a player feels he is going to be traded. If we do shop him, they should keep it hush hush so it doesn’t leak.
what system by the way?
i can’t see any system changes?
the Ducks still play the same style of hockey, the topline still plays their cyrcle game, and the koivu line still trys to shoot on the rush.
i can’t see our defenders be more agressiv, i can’t see more north south plays, i can’t see anything different from carlyle then the fact that BB plays all 4 lines.
Then you’re not watching the same games. With the exception of last game, I thought we played a much faster higher risk, higher reward game.
For me, the biggest difference is how much the D pinches. It seems to be their default move in the offensive zone. Somewhere between Boudreau and Carlyle is an amazing system of hockey waiting to be discovered.
I saw more than that . . .
I agree that the D was pinching further down the wall, but I also saw forwards aggressively trying to cover for them. The first 3 games under BB seemed (to me) to have much more energy and more scoring chances. I especially saw that we were moving the puck out of our own end much more effectively, using short passes and lots of support for the puck carrier. This enables the forwards to attack the opposing blue line with speed and creates odd-man opportunities. In the last game I saw the Ducks reverting to the 80’ stretch pass that was so common under Carlyle. The only real option after that is a dump-in; you can’t generate much speed from the red line. Maybe it was just travel fatigue last night, but they didn’t have the jump in their step.
by JLL on Dec 9, 2011 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
Yea, I’ve noticed the D pinch more and deeper in the zone. Also, Boudreau has only been coaching for like a week. I think the team will get a better understanding after saturdays game. They’ll get Sun-Tue to work on things. They have been playing every other day since he became coach, and I think having 3 days will help them learn the system better.
I might also add Daniel,
Give it a little time. When they get the kinks worked out, and if BB can get everyone to buy into what he wants, I think you’ll get a good look at what it was like to watch Paul and Teemu play together. It’s a shame you didn’t see that.
by JLL on Dec 9, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
I saw Paul and Teemu play together. I have frequently said that I wish I knew more about the game when they were playing so that I could have better appreciated it, but I saw them play.
My apologies Daniel,
I evidently misinterpreted an earlier post in which I thought you had said you wished you had seen them. My error.
by JLL on Dec 9, 2011 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
It’s not a thing. That stuff happens
by Daniel AC on Dec 10, 2011 9:23 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
yepp Paul and Teemu together was unique. They brought me to hockey and the ducks :)
All i saw here is not a system change. i know i know he had just a few days, i don’t expect anything other, but i think the system discussion is a bit weird at this stage of the season.
we have no new system.
our D is a little more aggressiv, but they try the same breakout passes they tried under carlyle. we still defend the same way like we did under carlyle, and we still attack the same way.
“more energy” or stuff like that is not a system.
so before we consider any system talks we should wait IF BB is changing a major thing. because quite frankly i don’t belief he will change much more.
I respectfully disagree
There have been a plethora of changes already.
1) The puck is always moving forward up the ice. I can’t remember more than maybe a handful of instances where passes have gone backward from the neutral zone into the defensive zone or when a defenseman has settled the puck behind the net and waited for support. Defenseman are chipping pucks up the boards instead of waiting for breakout passes and I see more plays where guys are pushing play into the offensive zone and then aggressively forechecking to retrieve it.
2) BB is using four forwards on the PP. That’s a pretty clear difference.
3) As others have noted, defenseman are much more aggressive in the offensive zone. Hell, we’ve seen Brookbank below the goal line on several occasions.
4) They’re more aggressively covering opposing puck carriers. Both in the neutral zone and our area of the ice, guys are on the puck carrier instead of collapsing into their zone assignments. This has been especially visible on the PK.
by PhantomPretender on Dec 10, 2011 8:24 AM PST up reply actions

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