Armchair GM: Facing Forward
by Daniel AC on Apr 27, 2011 2:48 PM PDT
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PrintDANIEL:
Now that the Ducks season has come to an end, the explanations for the loss are rolling in along with optimism for next year. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot to be excited about for next year. The Ducks don't have the pieces in their system to make Carlyle's system work, and Murray has demonstrated an inability to make the bold moves that are necessary to complete blockbuster transactions.
I recently told Arthur that Bob Murray reminds me of that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts comes back to Hector Elizondo after a failed shopping trip, crying and simply thrusts money at him. Murray is an ugly Julia Roberts [Editor's Note: redundant] who keeps thrusting spare parts onto Carlyle and insisting that they work. The man has no plan. This isn't NHL 11, where your ability can make any player fit onto any roster. After the jump, you'll find my assessment of why the Ducks failed this year and what Murray needs to do this offseason.
The Ducks failed this postseason because they have no defensive-minded forwards. They have forwards who can be defensively responsible. Saku Koivu comes to mind. However, it takes a player whose pride and identity are linked to shutting other guys down to get you through the playoffs. When we won the Cup, our checking line was devoted heart and soul to making other teams' top lines fail. Right now, the Ducks don't have anything like that on the roster, and all of our best forward prospects tend to have offensive upside. Yes, the Defense needs upgrades, but that will either be less necessary with forward upgrades, or acquired through trading forward depth.
The Ducks are pretty much set on D. They have 5 of 6 spots established, and 7 defensemen signed for next season. Personally, I'd love to see Murray go get a number 1 guy. Visnovsky and Lydman formed a fantastic top pair out of necessity. I'd also love to see Beauchemin put with a top guy next season, and let Fowler and Sbisa work on developing chemistry together. They are the pairing of the future, after all.
I also think the Ducks need to explore moving Bobby Ryan. With the forward depth in the organization, and the players on the free agent market, he can be replaced. Murray needs to channel his inner Burke and trade a 30-goal scorer for a defenseman who can permanently shore up the D. Sorry Robby, it's a smart deal any way you look at it.
Next, Murray needs to decide if Carlyle is really his coach. He thinks Carlyle is his coach, but as he continues to ignore the glaring need for defensive forwards, I wonder if he's committed to getting Carlyle the players he needs. Carlyle likes to sit on leads, and that's not a problem if the forwards are willing to fight the puck over the blue line. The Ducks forwards aren't.
Nashville ran an effective forechecking scheme where they pressured the D to move the puck towards the forechecking help. They forced turnovers when lazy forwards refused to fight the puck over, or in the case of Bobby and Getzlaf, made a break for the offensive zone instead of guaranteeing the puck cleared. There are free agent options to upgrade that tenacity, Brooks Laich, Ben Eager, Zenon Konopka, who would also improve our faceoff numbers, come to mind. Murray could even go back to the Burke era (if he insists) and pursue Rob Niedermayer, or bring back Ryan Carter. Both of them could shore up a 4th line and give Carlyle the Checking line he covets. Laich could bring more defensive responsibility to a scoring line and balance out the D. Personally, I think Brooks Laich should be the Ducks number one goal this off season.
The Ducks have scoring depth. Bonino, McMillan, Beleskey, Sexton, Holland, Etem, Smith-Pelley, Pamieri, and Deschamps. I'm not saying all of them can step in right away, but I am saying that's 3 scoring lines of prospects, and something's gotta give. If Carlyle can just commit to a third scoring line, the talent will gel and give him the results that he wants. More importantly, the team has the players to fill gaps of more established forwards (read Bobby Ryan and Jason Blake) are used as trade bait. McMillan has shown he can be defensively responsible, at times, but not really a shutdown forward. Maybe there is one to be had in the system, but I haven't noticed anyone.
The Ducks need to solve their forward problems. They have depth in the system, and need defensive forwards on the roster, not just guys with size and tenacity. They need legitimate shutdown forwards. The scoring will be fine. The Ducks will still have one of the best power plays in the league next year. Selanne staying or going shouldn't be a major hindrance to offseason plans. The Ducks will still need the defensive forwards, and if he goes, then let a young kid step in and grow into a scorer. Sexton has demonstrated chemistry with Koivu before. Right now, the Ducks are a team full of forwards with no idea what to do with them. Not all of these players are going to enjoy long careers with the Ducks; there's simply too many of them around the same age.
What Murray will actually do is anybody's guess. He should move Blake to at least make a little room for some youth, or a free agent upgrade. If he can find the right top pair guy, then he should move Bobby Ryan. Getting rid of both Ryan and Blake would open up a little cap space for the top defender as well as the 1-2M a defensive forward would cost. The Ducks don't need to find Manny Malhotra, just an upgrade from what's here.
In the end, leaving a jumble up front will prevent this team from forming the cohesive unit necessary to go deep into the playoffs. I'll finish up by starting trade speculation: Bobby Ryan, Jason Blake, a first rounder this year, a second rounder next year and a conditional first rounder for next year that becomes a third round pick if we don't make it past the second round. Discuss.
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I agree with you whole heartedly regarding needing defensive forwards (aka the guy that gets his jollies off of shutting down the other team’s top talent). I really like what I’ve seen of Laich and Eager so if Murray can get those guys and possibly have someone already in the system or a Rob Niedermayer join them all the better! I definitely think the big thing we were missing was that third line that not only shutdown the other team’s top talent, but actually contributed offensively as well. Laich and Eager are big boys and they can score as well…I like that. Get some guys like that and let our other boys continue to season in the AHL while the older guys are still playing (koivu and hopefully selanne)
I really do hope it doesn’t come down to trading Bobby Ryan. Unless he can get someone like Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara I don’t see the value in it. If Murray is going to go out and get anyone less than those guys it seems like a complete waste…
I am more inclined to think take what we’ve got and add a defensively responsible 3rd line that can pot one in every once in a while and see where that takes us approach.
Of course I’m still hoping Kariya and Selanne come back and that Hiller figures out his whole dealio!
We do need to rebuild the shut down line. That in turn should free up RPG to not have to play against other teams top lines and open up the chance to get some more points. If the point production comes then you could also scale back their minutes which in the post season was way to much. By game 6 Perry and Getzy looked gassed.
I love how you throw trading Jason Blake out there like he’s a hot commodity and getting rid of him will be easy. While we’re at it lets get rid of Sutton and his $2 million also. You can’t trade those two without another shit contract coming back so like it or not, we’re stuck with those 2 next year.
What Murray needs to do is realize that Hiller is done and try to sign Ilya Bryzgalov back. I don’t know how the Ducks can do this if Jonas thinks he can still play but I knew a guy who had vertigo most of his life and it never goes away. There are just days when the symptoms are attenuated.
Where Murray screwed up was in getting rid of the old 3rd line. He over-reacted to the rules changes and I believe to the success of the Blackhawks, whom he should have realized were a salary cap one-hit wonder. You can’t win the Cup every year, i hope there aren’t any knee-jerk reactions to what was a fairly successful season.
Blakmight not be a hot commodity, but he could be a great pick up for either a cash team looking to hit the cap floor or a big budget team that wants depth scoring and an expiring contract to either re-sign talent or be a major player in the 2012 free agent market.
If you can’t win the Cup every year, then it makes more sense to sign Emery and see if Hiller ever comes back. If he doesn’t, then Bobkov has had an AHL year and Emery is still a possibility as a number 1. I think Emery has way it takes to be an affordable option and give us a serious shot in the post season.
by Daniel AC on Apr 27, 2011 4:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Give Bobby at least half of the season to take over his own line, and dominate. If Selanne regrettably retires then Sexton-Koivu-Ryan should get a strong look. If he doesn’t then I don’t mind trying Bobby at center again or having him with McMillan and Palmeiri (maybe?) I don’t disagree at all with the premise that Bobby could be traded for a strong D, but I would like to see Carlyle give him a solid look in the beginning of the season on his own (away from P & G) and leave it alone and let them work it out. However, that may be asking too much of Carlyle. Also, I’m not convinced in Murray’s ability to get the best return for a player like Bobby. With our luck he would trade him to Toronto for Gardner and Lupul. When can McNabb be our GM?
I’ll finish up by starting trade speculation: Bobby Ryan, Jason Blake, a first rounder this year, a second rounder next year and a conditional first rounder for next year that becomes a third round pick if we don’t make it past the second round. Discuss.
I’m sorry. Maybe I missed something. What are you trading all this for? I’m thoroughly confused. = /
You think he could play well with Frenchy?
by Newport Rebel on Apr 27, 2011 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be one hell of a trade. I’m not sure how a team like Nashville could turn something like that down. The only thing I could think of is them not wanting to take on the 9 million for Bobby and Blake.
I think we might be overpaying in picks just a little.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 27, 2011 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
It will never happen.
Daniel do you not know by now that Nashville would never take a dirty player on to their roster and the Ducks are filled with them? They wouldn’t trade with the Ducks just on principle.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 27, 2011 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair. I can’t believe I forgot that.
In full disclosure, I’m not sure Nashville would part with it’s captain at any price, but this is also the team that let Hartnell and Timmonen go, so there’s a chance. At the very least, I think it’s a situation worth monitoring.
Yeah but Ryan is too dirty for the Preds. After the boot stomp whats next?
by Newport Rebel on Apr 27, 2011 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok, at first, I thought you were being sarcastic. Despite the fact that that move astronomically stupid, I think Nashville can look the other way. They do employ Jordin Tootoo who tried to cross check a guy in the face. I’m pretty sure they’d love to get Mike Fisher a winger like Bobby Ryan.
I was actually. Yeah I don’t see Nashville moving the captain any time soon and Suter I don’t think would play as well with Frenchy.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 27, 2011 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
No way they would trade Weber after making 2nd round of playoffs. They wouldn’t risk pissing off their fans and setting their franchise back. The only way they would trade him, is if Weber wanted a ridiculous contract, which we couldn’t afford anyways. Also, I’m pretty sure that if they would also want Sbisa or Fowler instead of Blake, to replace Weber.
Maybe. The Predators are sensitive about how they spend money. The Ducks could handle something in the 6.5-7 range, if they move the appropriate money, like Bobby and Blake. We might be able to convince them to take a different D, like Clark, Mitera, Gardiner or Newton.
I think they would want a young NHL defensemen to step in that is proven. If money is their concern for next year, Blake and Bobby’s salaries are 8.5 M combined next year. 6.5-7 isn’t much more than bobby’s 5.5625 to tell fans, that they traded their franchise player who lead them to the 2nd round of playoffs for Bobby to save a million or two and get some draft picks.
I don’t know. They’ve already done it. Moreover, Bobby could be considered a franchise level talent. It might provide scoring for a team that has, traditionally, been unable to get and keep this level of talent.
This isn’t a trade I’m hanging my hat on or anything. I’m simply pointing out that Nashville has, in the past, let some top level players go rather than pay full market price. In that situation, they might be wiling to part with Weber. Bobby Ryan would probably be an attractive alternative. If Murray can be a good negotiator, I know that’s hoping for a lot, then he might be able to draw a line in the sand and offer Bobby as the read NHL player. Don’t forget, Nashville would technically be negotiating from a worse position. They wouldn’t want to pay Weber that money. One year of 8.5 versus 6-10 years of 7 is a different matter. The picks and a defensive prospect as well as Bobby should be a good deal. Blake is to make sure the money resolves on our end. He’s the throw away contract. That doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be a good pick up for them as a depth forward.
Bobby + Sbisa + 1st? I can’t imagine Nash would let Weber go unless they didn’t want to pay him but he would make our team a genuine Cup contender. Like Pronger its hard to overpay when you get a game breaker so add whatever else is fair to that to get it done. Bobby Ryan is exactly like Jason Blake to me. Every time I see the puck on Bobbys stick I’m a disappointed 1 of his line mates doesn’t have it. If Carlyle won’t give him his own line then Murry needs to trade him.
you mean...
a ridiculous contract like the 10mil a year he is expected to get?
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
mark my words....
after that Kovalsuck deal… and if he wins the Norris…. the man will get 10 mil…. ill even drop it to 8.5
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I see three potential issues with trading Bobby
and I’ll rank them from what I think is most objective to least objective.
1) You do mention players on the market as well, but I have issues with the notion that Bobby’s production could be replaced by existing forward depth. Not because I necessarily doubt their abilities (more on that in part 3), but because I don’t think Carlyle will give them the chance they would need to succeed. I mean, Carlyle had a potentially potent Joffrey Lupul that he gave limited minutes to on a nightly basis, and Lupul isn’t even a young guy like our other forwards. Once we got Ruutu and LaPierre, it was like Sexton and our other young guys virtually disappeared in Carlyle’s eyes. Hell, Randy put Brad Winchester up top before he put Beleskey up there this year. While I think one of our guys might be able to replace Bobby, I think the biggest issue would be whether or not they get the opportunity to do so.
2) What happens if Teemu doesn’t come back? You’d be losing a combined 151 points and 65 goals if you were to also trade Bobby. Not only that, but you’d also seriously defang an already weak second PP unit. I don’t think there’s any combination of two readily available forwards or existing forwards that could replicate their production. That would be a serious blow to the team.
3) I keep hearing that anybody can play with the twins and have success, but I just don’t see it. I’m relying solely on what I’ve seen over the past two years here, but outside of short stints with Lupul and Beleskey, the twins really haven’t got it going without Bobby around. Think about last season when Kyle Calder got significant time up top and Bobby played on the second line. Bobby’s line remained potent while the top line really struggled to get much done. Even this season, Matt Beleskey couldn’t recreate the success he had last year up top and the twins just seemed to falter whenever Bobby wasn’t up top with them. They still produced on the PP, but they really struggled at even strength. I’m not saying that Beleskey couldn’t recapture his success from 09-10 with the twins, but I don’t think it’s as simple as any old player can be plugged in up top without disrupting the system.
Even with an abysmal December, Bobby put up career highs in points and assists and was just off his career point-per-game mark. I still don’t think we’ve seen the best Bobby can offer, but even aside from that, I don’t think we have the right coach to take advantage of a Bobby Ryan trade. Carlyle has shown time and again that he would prefer a veteran over a rookie, and there aren’t too many veterans that could readily replace Bobby’s production. Factor in the possible absence of Teemu and I think you’re looking at a serious scoring problem next year.
by PhantomPretender on Apr 27, 2011 6:28 PM PDT reply actions
When I have more time I’ll address each point, but for now I’d like to point
Out that we just got pretty well handled by a team that supposedly couldn’t score and didn’t have a good PP.
by Daniel AC on Apr 27, 2011 6:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I look forward to the long response
but re: Nashville. They had scoring by committee, which is something this team hasn’t had in some time. And part of the reason they HAD that scoring was because all of the lines saw the ice. If you excise one of this team’s top 4 scorers, I think you merely exacerbate the problem of all the scoring responsibilities being heaped onto one or two lines.
by PhantomPretender on Apr 27, 2011 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
1) I have two responses to this. First, necessity is the mother of invention. If Bobby goes, Carlyle will have no choice but to play the rookies. Second, let’s nor forget that this is the coach who won a Stanley Cup with a second scoring line comprised entirely of rookies. The PPG line had maybe a full season of NHL experience between them when they won a Cup in 2007. Not only that, but he really let Cam and Brandon come into their own this year. They forced him to play him, and he did. Carlyle can successfully play rookies. Maybe, he just needs nudge in that direction.
2) Considering my previous statement on Selanne’s career, I’ve been operating under the assumption he isn’t coming back, at least, until he says otherwise. As such, I still think that acquiring a guy like Laich makes Bobby a little expendable, especially if you can add a top pair guy and let guys like Sexton fill in. Sexton NEEDS PP time to get his game going. He hasn’t learned to create his own shot and the PP will give him the space he needs to generate more production. On top of that, I think losing Bobby will force the scoring by committee you just mentioned. Moreover, I think that defense wins championships. If the Ducks can make up 100 of those 151 points and use D to close the other part of the gap, then I think it’s still a great deal because the rookies will grow into that scoring role eventually.
3) I know you’re going to continue to disagree with me, but Corey Perry dragged Bobby Ryan out of that December slump. He spoon fed him 2 easy goals on the doorstep. Last year, Perry was still the Robin to Getzlaf’s Batman. This year, he shed that image and stepped into his own. As such, I don’t anticipate a situation like two years ago ever happening again. This is one of those moments where those no going back. Perry knows he’s a dominant player without Getzlaf. Can anyone play with the twins, maybe not. But if you think Bobby Ryan is the thing that makes that line go, you’re crazy. Moreover, Bobby is the one who always breaks the cycle. He’s the first to get away from the system and it disrupts the twins. Bobby has had a lot of trouble accepting that he isn’t as important as the twins, and it shows on the ice. I know you think he can’t do anything wrong, but he frequently misses shots, holds on to and shoots the puck when he should cycle down, and he carries in when he should pass to Selanne. That last part was for Arthur.
Finally, Bobby got rightfully suspended in the middle of a playoff series. Say what you want about the twins, but they never did anything as stupid as Bobby did this last series. Bobby remains the best trading chip on the Ducks roster, I think you’d be surprised how much the Ducks could do with a return like Shea Weber in a Bobby Ryan deal.
Say we move Bobby. Do we try to grab Penner for cheap? To say he is the goat in LA is an understatement. The fans already hate him and it could be a matter of time till he goes.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 28, 2011 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah he does have a big contract. Thanks again Edmonton.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 28, 2011 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Well Bobby has better hands and more upside then Pens but Pens played far better with Getzy and Pers. He just fit well with them. I have always though of Penner as a one trick pony. He needs a certain system to be successful. It just so happened that the Ducks had that system. Duck fans didn’t care that he was a system player because that system was the Duck’s style of play. He would have been a fool not to take that money but I think he still wishes he was a Duck. I can’t fault him for his choice though. This team would be better with him on it.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 28, 2011 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
yes...
Penner is effing useless…. and a locker room cancer…. i called that from day one
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I know the trainer James from the team....
Penner has a horrific diet… is lazy as can be… whines in the locker room nonstop…. and i honestly think those 30 goals were from being fed by Getz and Perry working their butts off :)
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
His chemistry with them was flawless. For whatever reason, he know exactly where to be to work with those guys. More importantly, he’s not a kid anymore. Despite struggles with the Kings, Penner can still be a solid offensive player. If he’s a little more grown up in terms of diet, I wouldn’t mind seeing him back with the twins.
Clearly his whining wasn’t a problem in 2007. Burke really wanted him back.
ill agree...
that he had chemistry as they are all still good friends… If he has grown up and proves it i wouldnt mind his big body in front as he is a fricken beast of a player…. but as for Burke…. im not too sure that wasnt just to spite the ducks ;)
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
no Penner...
took the money like he should have….I meant Lowe not Burke im sorry…. Burke was the Beauchemin theft
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
yea...
now that u mention Murray… i’d probably agree lol
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
if we are talking she weber its a definite yes Guys like him are rare and we were lucky enough to have 1 for a few years in Pronger. I wish Parise was unrestricted I would love to see the Ducks go for him. Sadly the price for a restricted free agent that will get the money he will is too steep a price to pay.
Interesting agreement with Wyshynski
While agreeing with most of what you said, I though you might be overreacting a bit. Then I read this:
Forgetting about the last three paragraphs or so, which are simply unprofessional if you’re a professional sports writer, like Wyshynski claims to be, there seems to be an agreement with what you wrote…
Why are so many here fired up about Sexton. Yes, hes fast and somewhat tenacious but in no way hes got some sort of unique talent even remotely close to RPG or Teemu. He doesnt have Bobbys hands or Getz vision, or Teemu’s scoring touch. Hes no Andy Mac either. You may disagree, but to me hes a 2nd line player on a bad team at best. I certainly see more upside in McMillan, Palmieri or even Belesky all of whom are equally hard working guys but with a better skill set. Sexton is a younger but even lighter less experienced version of Blake.
I absolutely agree that the top 2 lines had to play way too many minutes in this series but who else you could really put out there? Ruutu, Winchester, Marchant, Parros, etc…. there is place for one not all of them on a proper team.
They absolutely need to develop a credible shut down line and more grit with some scouring touch on the 3rd line. All forwards next year need to adjust and become more defensively responsible. There were so many moments where the attack by both top lines ended up with 3 on 2 in the Ducks zone.
And I would not trade Bobby for anything less than Weber. Bobby is uniquely versatile player with quite a bit of upside left.
I’m responding to Spade about Bobby, so you can see my thought there. As for Sexton, I disagree about the scoring touch. He just hasn’t figured out what all smaller players need to figure out, how to be in the right spot. He has a terrific shot, but he’s never shooting from good areas. He and McMillan were working on some great chemistry before Carlyle split them up. If Sexton can get some PP time and use that space to improve his confidence and overall ability, Ducks fans will be pleasantly surprised. If not, we have plenty of guys in the system, like Palmieri and Etem, who will be able to come up and eventually get the job done.
yea i never understood why sexton and bacon mcmuffin didnt get a longer look..they seem to work well together
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by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
has anyone given any thought of trading getzlaf over ryan?..his immaturity (he never should have been given the C he isnt ready should have selanne or koivu) horrendus turnover passes and bad play from time are very detrimental. the ducks have won without him and the team really seems to live or die on his mood for the game….Im not totally sold it should be him over bobby..as firswt line center are hard to find and replace…but somthing to chew on anyways
think about a top line with ryan-koivu-perry
then 2nd line with selanne-kariya-(some top level talent u got for getzlaf here)
no selanne well then it gets a little trickier of course..but your gonna get somthing good in return..
I agree the defense could be improved..but u only do that if still have selanne otherwise replacing selanne’s production is more important
pretty much agree though with all your saying our forwards lack of defensive play is what killed us…I also agree with that other commentor that no one is gonna want blake and we are stuck with him…which is fine..at least the guy is a hard worker and when is big contract is thru we will have a lot of cap space cleared
Im a sad bitch right now thanks alot patos:-(
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by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 5:39 AM PDT reply actions
I think Blake is very movable. He makes less than his cap hit on the last year of his contract. Someone will be willing to take him on if they want to be a player in the 2012 free agent market. In the case of Nashville, he might be the type of player they like. He can play anywhere in the line up, play the system, and play hard. I’m sure the Ducks could make a deal work.
As for the Getzlaf v. Ryan thing, yes the smart move is to keep the top line center. One thing that confuses me though, is that people don’t seem to see Bobby as doing the same thing. Every time he stick handles in a 1 on 2 situation the puck moves back up the ice as if he had just passed it behind his back without looking, which he also sometimes does. Bobby is usually the first to abandon the cycle, and the first to abandon the physical game. He competes in the defensive zone even less than Getzlaf does, and sometimes he cherry picks worse than Teemu Selanne. I can understand Selanne cherry picking, homeboy has 600+ goals. Bobby Ryan needs to get his stupid, skate-stomping ass back to the defensive zone and make sure the puck clears.
I think it looks like bobby hustles more than getz
Which is why getz draws the lion’s share of frustration from people this year.
I would also say that even though they both turn over the puck (albeit in very different ways), fans would rather see a guy shooting or trying to do too much rather than trying to make a pass through traffic. At the end of the day, they’re both turnovers and I dislike them. But I think, psychologically, if you see a puck going back the other way, it stings less if the guy was trying to score. Not saying that’s right, but it could explain why people don’t feel bobby turns over the puck as much.
by PhantomPretender on Apr 28, 2011 8:51 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I wont argue bobby is just as bad as baldy in turnovers and the defensively(however u spell that)
phantom has a point though that bobby isnt afraid to shoot and take the puck to the net….
its a boogle for sure…..and bringing it up for talking purposes..cuz hey thats all we can do now…
that top line really needs a steve ruchin type that plays well defenisvely* and creates room for his linemates and covers there cherry picking asses like rooch did for selanne and kariya in there heyday…
in all getzlaf just pisses me off cuz his errors jump out
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by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Whether or not you notice the error doesn’t mean it has any less chance of the puck ending up in the back of the net. Appearances can be deceiving. I watch Bobby and I see a guy who is much more concerned with himself and his numbers than making sure the team does well. Bobby is a very selfish player. It’s kind of like having the Wisniewski argument all over again. I keep hearing “Who cares what he does, at least he plays hard.” I think we all remember how well that worked out.
I wouldnt argue that either..and both players equally piss me off
its a mindf*&^ thats for sure..on how to fix this team the way its constructed..with the players we have and there mentalities
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by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Overall, i still think the problem is Bob Murray. Burke had a plan and he gave the team direction. Murray has forced Carlyle to constantly scramble to make something happen. Maybe great coaches adapt, and Carlyle isn’t a great coach. However, he’s still a really good one. If Burke/Murray had been able to keep the team in a situation where Bobby could learn everything he needed to, maybe we wouldn’t be in this situation.
I like my Julia Roberts example. I feel like Bob Murray goes out bargain shopping, and then comes back with full arms, thrusts the players at Carlyle and says “Make it work!” That’s just not a good way to build a team. You need a plan. It’s clear Murray doesn’t have one.
no doubt hes a lot to blame also..I think were stuck with him for awhile though…all we can hope is murray gets lucky….rudy might have been right in his eulogy..this team got to the playoffs..the samueli’s might see that as postive and reason for keeping him…maybe it would have done the ducks more good to miss the playoffs?
cuz then the samuelis might have looked at murray more closer
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by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, at first, I though Rudy was going a little below the belt. Then I realized I was just being angry because he was right.This is a team that is actually over performing. There are serious issues that are being ignored.
Murray is a major problem, and sadly I agree that he isn’t going anywhere. You’re right, we’ll just have to hope for the best.
I mean doesnt murray go into caryles office..and say..ok randy..what can i do better?…what can i provide to you to make it work?..or u think murray is incapable of humility?
some positive news..in his latest interview he at least aknowledged he knew the problem was team defense…so he knows..problem is his idea of players that will help that situation has not been good
WARNING: BOC is not an Intellectual site!
www.battleofcali.com
by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Apr 28, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish I knew. Obviously, I’m only speculating based on what I’ve seen. However, Arthur and I have had discussions where we just can’t seem to figure out what Murray is thinking. I imagine he has to talk to Carlyle in some capacity, but sometimes I wonder if he’s listening to Carlyle as well as he should be.
Something is going to have to give, because the Ducks can’t keep this up. Murray does more harm than good to this team. I wish the Samuelis could see that.
Maybe Murray does have a plan and it’s a secret. You are just not in the know. I saw it. It was on the back of a cocktail napkin and it had a bunch of arrows pointing to things. Seemed like a legit plan to me.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 28, 2011 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure we would trade Bobby before Getz, but one thing that kind of makes me think of trading getz first is that it’s going to be hard signing getz and perry in the same year. I’d prefer to keep Bobby, I think his numbers will grow and he’ll become more valuable when Selanne retires, and he moves to the #1 PP unit and if Selanne retires, use that money for a D man FA. I want to get one an extension earlier, so we don’t have to worry about them both at the same time.
In a completely unrelated note. I love the face palm in this picture.
by Daniel AC on Apr 28, 2011 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
The needs you stated are factual, your approach to get those pieces is dubious at best.
You’re looking to trade a dynamic, versatile, large forward with upside for strong two-way forwards, and/or a top defenseman. Good luck as a GM justifying that move.
Besides, Bobby’s play, though inconsistent, has developed into a two-way game that was none-existent in years past which was a welcome sight to someone like me who has questioned his hockey sense at times…
Obviously, the offseason hinges on two pieces and whether or not we re-sign them:
1) Does Teemu retire or not?
2) Do we bring Marchant back for another year?
The answers are pretty simple in my mind:
1) If Teemu wants to play you got to let him, he was good all year and pretty healthy too.
2) Marchant though I have always been a fan, is expendable. Chipchura looks like a cheaper, younger version of Marchant with a little less speed, but a little more grit. I wouldn’t bet against Chippy getting a chance to center that 4th line next year.
As for addressing the Ducks’ issues defensively, I see quite a few intriguing UFAs that might be had after July 1:
Defenseman:
Kevin Bieksa – some of ya’lls favorite out there, but will likely be hard to get with his play this year putting him in prime position for a big raise
Sami Salo – another fin for Teemu to play with, this guy is solid, but probably not as good as he has been in years past
Christian Erhoff- imagine Fowler, Lubo, Erhoff on our speedy backend…
…and those are just from the Canucks blueline!
as far as solid 2nd/3rd liners Laich and maybe Eric Cole are the only guys that catch my eye, but other than that there doesn’t seem to be many game changers out there to be had by free agency. This might be where a swap of Blake might make sense for some team needing secondary scoring, but it would be hard. The solid third-liner is cap-locker room-fan friendly and thus are the toughest type of players to scout and to snatch up. Plus, as you alluded to, this is where the Ducks’ farm seems thin so people will be digging in our pockets if we reach out on a deal. Wouldn’t you?
Playing time on the PK doesn’t make you a two way forward. Nothing about Bobby’s game says two-way forward to me. If you want to say he’s improved defensively, I’m listening. If you want to argue he’s a legitimate two way player, then you and Robby are drinking the same stuff.
I think you’re using the term top defenseman a little loosey. My example of a top defenseman is a Norris finalist. it’s not like I’m grasping at straws. Personally, I think Anaheim fans have become a little too enamored with a player who can only be counted on to make the right decision every other time he has the puck. Bobby breaks the system, goes long stretches without taking the body, and goes on some pretty epic cold streaks. You make it sound like I’m trying to trade him for Eric Johnson.
I already wrote that I would like to see Selanne retire unless he’s going to play with Kariya next year. It would be disingenuous of me to approach my offseason writings as if he was coming back. If Selanne is retiring, then I see trading Bobby as equally imperative. We’ll need the D upgrade to help offset the loss in scoring. Laich can produce at 50-60 points a season which is only a net loss of about 15 -20 points. If the rookies can over come that and half of Selanne’s output, then the improved D should be able to cover the rest of it.
We agree about Marchant!
I guess we could sign one of those guys, if we can’t work a great deal involving Bobby. Although, I wonder if Bieksa just had a great contract year, and if Erhoff will be an upgrade in the muscle department, which is what we really need. Salo and Wisniewski were baked with the same gingerbread.
I guess we could move Blake for depth, but I don’t know if that will work. The reason I put him in the Weber deal is that he fits the Nashville style as well as the team’s contract situation. I still think a NYI or Florida would take him to reach the cap floor. I don’t know if being cap, locker room, and fan friendly necessarily makes a player difficult to scout, although potentially difficult to acquire. That’s why I want us to buy one in free agency, like Laich or Konopka. Ok, maybe not Konopka but those faceoff numbers are sexy.
As for reaching into pockets, I suppose that’s why you make sure you have deep pockets. A good GM doesn’t get fleeced. Maybe if we had a good GM, you wouldn’t be too worried about spending surplus to acquire a need.
We agree for the most part… The point I was trying to make is that if Bobby is a player that has developed beyond the scoresheet. The evidence is shown by Carlyle’s increased usage of Bob-o in various situations. I feel that in your arguments this is dismissed too easily. His development and contract length may very well be good as a trade chip, but I can’t honestly see Weber coming over for him and there aren’t alot of other players I’d even consider for him because of his value (Subban, Doughty plus Simmonds…). I don’t think your underestimating his trade value, however, I do think you are overestimating our scoring depth. To say that Bonino, Beleskey, Sexton could even be considered scoring depth with the seasons they had for us would be a reach. I mean I think they should be good nhlers, but seriously they are nowhere near as offensive.
What would the deal be? Ryan, Mat Clark, and some picks for Weber?
Personally, I can’t imagine that, but I guess if someone told me that Lupul and Smid for Pronger would go down I would have laughed in their face…
I put my deal at the end of the post. I think it’s a pretty good one. But, then again, I made it.
I think you’re over estimating Bobby’s value. I think it might be safer to say that Carlyle used him as much as he did, because he didn’t have much of a choice. When the year started, he ddidn’t have enough players for PK duty so he gave Bobby a shot. Bobby was good not great, which is why he got replaced by Perry on the PK depth chart. Sure, he made a comeback, but he was on the third PK Pairing behind various combinations of Marchant-Koivu-Ruutu, and Perry-McMillan.
It’s possible that I am overestimating our scoring depth, but it’s not like the Ducks have a lot to lose in this equation. We don’t have a top defenseman like Weber anywhere in the system, but Etem could be just as dynamic a scorer as Bobby. DSP could fit that top line beautifully. Sexton and McMillan could further grow the chemistry they had. I guess my point is that we have to go outside for that top D, but Ryan’s replacement might only be a year away in a player we already have.
Finally, if Lombardi gave us Doughty and Simmonds for Bobby, he should be fired immediately. If he gave us Doughty for Ryan straight up the Kings should still consider firing him. Doughty is a former Norris nominee who had an average year compared to the career year he had before. He’s still probably one of the top 5 D in the league. Bobby is not one of the top 5 forwards. Bobby probably isn’t even top 15, maybe 20.
Doughty for Bobby yes please. That’s the kind of offer u don’t get a call back on thou or they counter with Simmons for Perry.
no way....
i would take drew doughty…. he is 10 times worse than Sbisa and Cam
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
how....
have u watched kings games? Doughty is either a superstar… or an AHL grade defenseman…. Quick makes him look good… and he usually brings his AHL game…. even all the kings fans i know hate his stupid play (not as much as JJ’s though)…. i’m not a troll dude… i just know my hockey
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I do watch Kings games, which is why I’m doubting your hockey. Doughty is a terrific skater, has a great shot, reads plays well, and is usually great at maneuvering away from pressure. A bad year doesn’t eliminate a player’s whole skill set. That sounds like some people trying to lay everything at Doughty’s feet.
Now, Jack Johnson is terrible.
well...
i’m not sold on him…. I wanna see if he can rebound before i make my final judgement i guess
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Erhoff
Ive been talking to my buddies about landing Erhoff but hes probably the one defenseman most likely to resign with the nucks… hes in his prime and playing for the best team… But Erhoff Beauch would be the top line and they’d move Lyd and Viz to the second. Legitimate scoring threats on every d-line.
But I have a feeling we are going to sign Salo to keep Shamu… which I don’t think will be a determinant in signing Selanne and will be stuck with a larger contract with a player that has battled a big injury and is exiting his prime.
I love Speculation
First I think we have to, and can, move Blake and Sutton, though Sutton may be harder. We could try moving Blake for Nabokov? Islanders don’t expect to get much for him and we could use a depth goalie for his price. There is bound to be a team interested in Sutton, put him on waivers just to offload his contract. If he’s going to sit anyway cut the losses and just give his contract to someone else if you can’t trade it for a pick or something.
As for moving Bobby Ryan, after a long year I am coming to believe that Daniel is right. At least that if we move one of the top 3 he is the player that goes. I don’t think that Ryan can reach his potential under Carlyle, either because he’s not mature enough to buy into the system or that the system just doesn’t work for him in his mind. That makes him expendable. I wholeheartedly agree that our forward defense his severely lacking. Instead of moving Ryan for a D why not a Selke candidate like Patrice Bergeron from Boston. They have a lot of centers and could use the top end scoring that Ryan could provide. There is also Jordan Staal but I don’t see Pit moving him for Ryan after the acquired Neal. Bergeron can win Face-offs and can play top unit minutes which would give us some nice center depth. IMO some competition for Getzlaf as the top center might help him mature into a more responsible player. As much as I’d like to see Weber I just don’t see the Preds moving their captain, or Sutter for that matter. Though I think they would still take Ryan if he was offered for something else. I believe Trotz even said he’d love to have Ryan and that the stomp wasn’t like the player. Though he surely deserved that suspension.
As for FAs there wasn’t much on that list that got me excited. Tomas Fleischmann caught my eye and his current injury could bring down his price. I saw a rumor that Burke may be targeting Brooks Laich so I don’t see us winning that bidding war. With our budget I don’t see us being able to sign a top 4 D, which only leaves trading for that option. I liked the combo of Beauch and Sbisa as a shut down pairing. If we could upgrade Fowlers parter with a solid Defensive D-man I would be happy with our Defense. I like the idea of adding Zenon Konopka, from what I’ve heard he’s good in the circle and can kill penalties, I heard he was kind of a goon though.
Lastly, if Selanne does retire then we could possible move Koivu to the 3rd line and ask him to focus on a more defensive and shut down role. We can use Ryan to acquire another Center or if they wanted let him have another go at it with some vet help on the wings that can help cover his mistakes as he learns instead of players trying to learn their own roles in the NHL at the same time.
P.S. If we moved Ryan, what do you guys think it would take to get Brenden Morrow From Dallas?
There was a time when I hoped we could move Bobby Ryan as part of a Jeff Carter package. That time has sadly gone, but I also wanted to then move Koivu down the third line and let him focus on PK and PP with little even strength interference.
Brooks Laich is going to get 4 million dollars. I doubt even Burke will go much higher than that. Yes, Laich can play center and wing, but I doubt Burke will overpay to the extent that we can’t match. The argument we need to make is that if he comes here, Laich will get a chance to play with the twins, and or Bobby Ryan. Toronto doesn’t have any talent like that on their roster. Maybe Kessel, but I think Laich would realize how well he’d fit in here. I’ve watched the guy play; he’s secretly a Duck from 2007 who’s been stuck in Washington for too long.
I keep going back to Bergeron as a nice choice. He had a couple 70 pt seasons before his injury and hes a solid 2 way center. maybe if Kariya and Selanne come back and play for a nice, friendly, set of contracts, say around what Selanne got this year for both, it would Give Murray the flexibility he would need to sign a decent FA. I’m not sure how much we get from profit sharing but I wouldn’t expect our budget cap to allow for much more then we already have. Sadly all I see Murray doing is signing some no name bargain barrel players to fill out the roster. Also looking at trends over the last 4 years it appears to me that the teams that are closest to winning or have won a cup have all been up to the cap in salary. Not saying that you can’t be competitive without going to the cap or that every team that hits the cap has a chance to win the Cup. I would be curious to see the financial statements for the Ducks for the year after we won the Cup to see how we fared. If we did well it might be worth making the investment to the cap to get us back into real contention.
I don’t know exactly how the money and such works in the NHL, but OtF did a nice piece on what the NHL’s new deal with NBC/Versus for TV rights means as far as money that goes towards players. If teams are getting a piece of that money and some of that goes towards the cap for the year, I think we’ll have more spending money this year even if our owners don’t want to shell it out. I could be wrong and wouldn’t be surprised one bit though. You can read what they wrote if you want. It gave me a slight idea of what things might look like.
I don’t think Bergeron is a free agent. I didn’t see him on either the RFA or UFA list at capgeek. I agree he’d be a nice choice, but I don’t know if there’s a way for us to get him.
I think I remember looking up his contract on CapGeek when someone else mentioned him and he’s signed for several more years at around 5mil. Unless the Bruins are looking to dump salary (sounds probable), they probably wouldn’t get rid of him. And they likely wouldn’t want salary in return (i.e. No Ryan or Blake).
We could probably take on Ference Or Boychuk, though we would probably have to throw a prospect or a high pick their way. I think Boychuk is young and probably looking at a raise soon as well. I’m not sure how much value Ryan has over Bergeron. Those were just a few D guys that were signed through next year at reasonable cap hits.
On a side note....
If god fobid Hiller doesnt recover….
BRIng BACK BRYZ!!!!!!!
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:34 PM PDT reply actions
We couldn’t afford Bryz unless we traded Hiller, and if Hiller doesn’t get healthy, he is untradable.
We could put Hiller on LTIR, but we’d still have to pay him. In terms of a cap situation it would work, but I don’t think the team can actually afford it.
what...
about buying his contract out?
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
how old is he?
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
damn...
he looks 26… maybe the NHL will buy it lol?
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
by buy it...
i mean that we can say he looks 26… not the contract
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey guys...
i found some interesting stuff…. do we know what kind of insurance policy we have on Hillsy? Because if he is covered by it we CAN afford Bryz as the insurabce would pay for Hiller’s contract right?
http://www.hackneypublications.com/sla/archive/001222.php
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
i kind of know about it, but you need to be 100% he is going to be injured. If he recovers half way between the season, then you have two goalies getting a huge chunk of the payroll.
yea...
sadly… i just really don’t see him coming back :(
but i never said it wasnt a gamble…. but c’mon if Samauelli wants to chip in 90mil to get the Kings to come here…. whats 13.5 mil to pay off Hills’y right?
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Personally, I think the problem with it is the cap hit. You can’t just buy out Hiller’s contract. I’m not sure what it would be, but I think it’s something like half the contract spread over twice the years. Which means it’d be something like an extra 1.5 against the cap for the next 6 years.
I don’t even know why were talking about buying him out. He missed half a season with vertigo, if he can’t play next season, we can talk about this. He has like 4 months to recover, it is way too soon to even think about buying out. 13.5M to pay of Hills is different than the Kings, because the Samauelli’s would recover that money by Kings ticket sales, and I bet they get more money from Honda for naming rights.
fair enough...
just so you don’t get your hopes up though… I know a couple people with vertigo… its not pretty :(
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know anything about vertigo, so I think it’s fair to discuss all possibilities. Even if the Samuelis can afford to absorb the loss, the real problem is what a buyout does to our cap.
yea...
i believe your suggestion may be best then with the LTIR …… we get his salary towards a replacement at least
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
here are the options
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/learnthegame/a/nhl_salary_cap.htm
"Off the floor and on the Board!!!!"- Kariya
by Screw the NYBankees on Apr 29, 2011 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Another D Option
I wonder if we could work out a deal with the Preds for Klein. That wouldn’t cost us much in cap or assets but get us a decent low cap D from a known producer of good D-men
I think the problem with that, is that the Preds love low cap productive players. He sounds like the type of player Nashviell would definitely want to hang onto.
I wasn’t all that impressed with Klein.
by Newport Rebel on Apr 30, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
UFAs
What about a Bryan McCabe UFA signing? He was +3 on a pretty terrible Florida team. Only thing is he is old…
I don’t think so. If we’re going to pull in someone who isn’t a top pair guy, I’d rather we just didn’t waste the money, boosted the forward corps, and then let a young D find his way onto the roster.
I don’t see us spending much more then 2 mil on another D, which kind of takes us out of the running for most guys that would really be an upgrade. IMO
Just read the OC article on Sutton, looks like he knows he was terrible and wants to rebound with the club come Sept…roll the dice?
If we can’t get someone better, then yes. Sutton-Sbisa could still be a decent pair. I don’t think he’d be good with Fowler, because Sutton needs to wander to land those big hits. But, if we can’t land a legitimate top pair guy to play with Beauchy, then Sutton should probably get a second look.
Update
I read on ESPN today that the Flyers may shop Carter, though it may just be a media reaction to the second round exit.
But what are they going to want for him? There are teams that are in much more of a need for scorers than we are (Nashville, Toronto, etc) who would probably give up more than we would be willing to. Not that Carter would be worth more, just they need it more. I’m also not sure we can take on his 5.3 mil cap hit until 2022 or whenever it is.
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