She's A Beauty That #9: Kariya's Jersey
Gone are the days of the eggplant, mint green and white jerseys with the Mighty Duck crest; only to be replaced by the black, white, gold, and (dead Muppet) orange with the web-print D. Many Ducks fans came to the franchise post-lockout while the team was still wearing the original jerseys. It was around that time GM Brian Burke used the Mighty Ducks' second overall pick in the draft to take a kid out of Cherry Hill, New Jersey named Bobby Ryan.
Throughout his young hockey career, Ryan had worn the #9 on the back of his jersey; however, under Burke, all rookies playing with the big club would be relegated to higher jersey numbers until the GM (and coach) felt that the young player had earned his spot. Once landing with the Ducks, Ryan wore #54 until he was given the blessing to change his jersey to his regular #9. For long time Ducks' fans, the sight of a new #9, one that hadn't been worn since 2003, brought back memories of the one who wore it first - Anaheim's prodigal son, Paul Kariya.
Kariya officially retired last week, leading many Ducks' fans to debate whether his jersey should be retired by the franchise he helped to build, but would later leave. So Arthur, Daniel, and Earl, should Kariya's #9 jersey be retired or not?
PRO-JERSEY RETIREMENT
ARTHUR:
For me, the question of retiring Kariya's number brings me back to Joe Sakic's number retirement ceremony two years ago.
Now, say what you want about Kariya, but if anyone ever said, in bold ALL CAPS that they didn't want to play for their current franchise, that they refused to submit to the indentured servitude imposed upon them by the '90s collective bargaining agreement that kept them RFA's of the team that drafted them until age 31, that they refused to play for anything less than an inflated salary and had every intention of screwing management, it was Joe Sakic in 1997.
Under Sakic's three year, $21 million dollar contract with the Rangers, $17 million (via a $15 million bonus) was due at the end of the first year, leaving him hovering at 2M for the rest of the deal. Seventeen million dollars was a lot of money for the Avalanche, who were hemorrhaging cash and ultimately gave Sakic the money they received in their new arena to keep him in Colorado.
Still, the Avalanche fans cried, literally TEARS, at Sakic's number retirement ceremony. Do Avs fans understand the Collective Bargaining Agreements better than Ducks fans? Are they naturally more pro-player than pro-management? I don't think so (though the quickness with which the Anaheim faithful turned on Bobby Ryan was rather unsettling). Ultimately, the Avs were willing to pay whatever ludicrous amount was necessary to keep Sakic in uniform and secure the money their superstar brought the franchise. Despite the message that his RFA offer sheet signature sent, they kept him.
Again, say what you want about Kariya, but his intentions to leave Anaheim at any cost were never that blatant. He wanted his freedom, I'm sure-- every prime-aged player waking up to the reality of the '90s CBA's RFA restrictions did. However, when it came down to it, when his freedom was in sight and Bryan Murray told him he wouldn't submit a qualifying offer for the left winger, Kariya made a phone call which Randy Youngman recently revealed to Ducks fans:
"But Murray also conceded that Kariya's agent, Don Baizley, warned the GM his client would at least explore his options if Kariya was not qualified. A few days later on June 29, Kariya called Murray at a hotel in Canada and informed him, "Bryan, if you don't qualify me, I think I should look around." When Kariya and Selanne signed with Colorado on July 3, Murray was upset that he didn't get a chance to make a counter-offer, as Baizley had promised he would."
I'm not sure what more Paul Kariya owed Bryan Murray, Disney, or any of us. The franchise didn't want to pay him his qualifying offer, and he called them to warn them that he would be exploring his freedom if they didn't. Sakic was not a "better" man than Kariya, and yet Sakic gets tears, while Kariya cashes jeers.
Even if I was bitter, and I'm not, it would come down to one thing for me: the ice. On the ice, Kariya did everything he could in service of the shield. That includes taking EVERY concussion that damaged his brain, save for the final Kaleta elbow. In almost ten years out of a Ducks uniform, Kariya had no head injuries, meaning the franchise that watched over the display of what he could do as an offensive phenomenon claims some responsibility for what he can't do now. In that sense, I'm actually happy that the guy found other places to play; it may have been the best thing for his health, as one more concussion following Stevens headshot would have ended his career.
There is no 'thank you' to compensate Kariya for his brain damage. Ten million dollars a year for the rest of his life wouldn't do it. And raising his jersey into the rafters, as permanent as that might be, also seems like a gesture that falls short of true gratitude for the sacrifice made.
Of course they should retire his number, of course they should welcome him into the front office. My only question is, what MORE can they do, and why aren't they doing it?
DANIEL:
The fact that this question needs to be asked is a little ridiculous. Kariya was the first superstar in Anaheim. I'd go so far as to say that he was the biggest hockey player in Southern California after the Kings moved Gretzky. I'm not going to bore you with stats. You can read them for yourself.
The main argument against Kariya's number going up in the rafters is how he left. Everyone seems to be mad at Kariya for saying what he was supposed to say, after the Mighty Ducks had just lost the Cup. I didn't realize that generic sporting comments were solemn oaths. Of course he said he was coming back. At the time of the rally, he was still under contract. I don't think he was expecting a buy out.
Why is it that sports are only a business when it serves our purpose to label them as such? Jeff Carter and Mike Richards give Philly a discount in exchange for longevity. No one stands up for their mistreatment. Everyone tells them to do their job and report to the new team. When a player makes a decision to leave, after being cut loose by his franchise, all of the sudden he's betrayed the fans. I don't understand how Murray didn't betray the fans when he expected Kariya to give up 10 million dollars he had already earned from a previous deal. I don't understand how Selanne didn't betray the fans when he decided to play for Colorado after deciding that persuading Kariya to go to Anaheim wasn't worth his energy. When did Selanne become a child who was put on a leash and dragged to Colorado by Kariya? How quickly Ducks fans forget that Selanne didn't want to play in Anaheim that year, either. If hockey is a business, then it's always a business. A player making a business decision can't undo the 9 seasons of amazing work he did. It doesn't mean he hated Anaheim or its fans; it means that it wasn't the best move for his career.
I know Selanne holds all the records, but if he hadn't shown up on the Ponda Center doorstep with a surgically repaired knee looking for a job, would there be any doubt who the greatest player in franchise history is? Paul Kariya is the greatest Mighty Duck of all time. There was a Disney era, a Mighty Duck era, and now there is a Duck era. Selanne has played more seasons in the Duck era than he did in Kariya's time. While most of the best memories have happened in the new era, the first era was still uniquely ours, as were all the amazing things that Paul did during that era. It's important to remember that history, if for no other reason than surviving it allowed us to endure, as a fan base, and reap the benefits of new ownership. Kariya was the quintessential Mighty Duck, a player who endured a budding franchise's multiple mistakes, and continued to play his heart out for us. He was the player who left everything on the ice, and did his job.
One of my favorite MCs, 2Mex, once noted "worship the music, not the man". From 1994-2003, Kariya was Bach. When he made a business decision, the same decision Selanne made, he was rewarded with banishment, while Selanne was sanctified. If Anaheim fans had welcomed Kariya instead of punishing him, we wouldn't be having this discussion. In Fact, Selanne would still be chasing his old friend's franchise records. Kariya will enter the hall of fame on the back of his 989 points in 989 games. He will enter as a Mighty Duck. It's fitting that his old home give him the same honor, and retire his 9.
Thank you Paul. I offer the sincerest of thank yous from a fan who remembers that while you worked for a company famous for its magic, you conjured up some of the most remarkable memories for hockey fans everywhere.
EARL SLEEK (from Battle of California):
Obviously the crux of this number-retirement debate is going to boil down to Kariya's "backstabbing" departure from Anaheim - days after the magical 2003 cup finals run, he snubbed a sizable Ducks' offer to sign a dirt-cheap contract with a loaded Colorado team. And while that betrayal still pisses off a lot of very legitimate Ducks fans, I just don't know that never-ending loyalty is a reasonable expectation in today's league - backstabbing is becoming way too commonplace, both by players and teams.
After all, Anaheim itself has been the beneficiary of a superstar player betraying his team shortly after a G7 SCF loss when Chris Pronger forced a trade out of Edmonton - difficult to imagine the Ducks participating in that auction had Paul Kariya's contract been on the books. And we really shouldn't forget that Teemu Selanne also turned down an Anaheim offer to play with Kariya in Colorado; the beloved Finnish Flash shares some culpability in PK's hated decision. (Teams are guilty of backstabbing players, also - Philadelphia traded Richards and Carter despite both players' commitments to the franchise, Setoguchi got traded a day after signing a nice deal, etc.)
So even though we all hate how Kariya left, I don't think it should outweigh how crucial he was while he was here - from the Mighty Ducks' laughingstock days to their ascent into Stanley Cup Finals legitimacy, he was the exact captain that the team needed, both on and off the ice. Jen already shared my tweet, but yeah - if not for PK, I wouldn't be a Ducks fan today. The guy won me over in so many aspects (the shallowest being that we're both half-Asian), but especially in the fact that he played for the silliest-named team in sports history and kept his chin up about it. Back when I was a new fan, that was hugely important - I assume Kariya was disappointed being drafted by a team named after a kids movie, but he never showed it; he carried himself just as if he'd been picked by an original six team. And he was perfect for the new market. His beautiful on-ice play with Selanne lured non-hockey fans like myself into the building, helping us appreciate a non-violent aspect of a largely violent sport, plus the duo's off-ice charisma helped win us over further, acquainting us with the personalities behind the hockey plays. In a lot of areas, those two superstars not only helped the Mighty Ducks become a better hockey team, but they also really helped Anaheim become a better hockey market.
And that's really why I'm in favor of retiring #9, along eventually with #8. The Ducks are no longer the new franchise they once were, Anaheim is no longer a new market it once was, and I think we've entered a phase in franchise history when we should celebrate those advances. In my mind, it really can't be done without recognizing both Kariya and Selanne -one of them simply couldn't have been nearly so effective at cementing this franchise as the two of them together.
Of course Ducks fans are deeply divided on this issue, enough so that the number-retiring probably won't happen of its own accord. But I do have a proposed solution, one that we might agree on - let's ask Teemu his opinion, and follow through with whatever he suggests. Selanne seems genuinely excited about the idea of playing next season, particularly for the opener in Helsinki and the December game in Winnipeg - if he'd get amped up for a Kariya ceremony as well, let's do it.
Whatever the decision, thanks for everything, PK.
ANTI-JERSEY RETIREMENT
JEN:
I was at the game when Bobby Ryan skated out for the first time wearing the #9. Because it wasn't announced beforehand, it was a shocking, yet cathartic moment. Here was one of the key pieces to the future of the Ducks wearing a symbol of the past. In a way, it was closure to a very messy ending.
Regardless of what actually happened, many Ducks' fans see Kariya as everything the boys argue his isn't - a turncoat that wanted more money or to win at any cost. To raise Kariya's jersey up to the rafters cannot be met with a positive response from the current group of Ducks' faithful. The fans of the team are more likely to support a "Paul Kariya Night" (without jersey retirement) or a renaming of part of the renovated area as the "Paul Kariya Hall of Champions". With the latter, the Ducks can display the accomplishments of Kariya and his Mighty Ducks teammates and marry it together with the successes of the current Ducks.
Retiring Kariya's jersey is essentially taking the number right off the back of one of the most recognizable members of the Ducks and giving it to someone that turned their back on us right after the franchise went on the most unlikely run to the Stanley Cup Final. From a PR perspective, it may be a "feel good" story to recognize Kariya, but on the other end, it's ignoring how much Bobby has done for the Ducks. I'm sure publicly BR would be gracious in surrendering his number so it could be retired, but I don't think it's right. Remember when Teemu came back and was wearing the #13 because Sandis Ozolinsh was wearing the #8? No one forced Ozolinsh to give the jersey back to Teemu, and Teemu is the most beloved member of the franchise. (By the way, if I were Teemu, I wouldn't want to play for a GM/owners that dealt me away from my bff to the Sharks. The argument that he left too is ridiculous.)
The four of us and readers of the site are the exception. We read everything and anything on the Ducks. Until Arthur explained everything to me on what happened with Kariya, I was just like everyone else, but that doesn't change my stance. I appreciate everything PK did as a Mighty Duck, but that was in the past. He left. Period. The only Duck getting their jersey retired in the near future (after five more good years on the ice) is Selanne and rightfully so.
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I won’t get into the bitter boyfriend breakup aspect, but I will say, just because the Ducks retire the number, it doesn’t mean that Bobby has to give it up. It would mean that he would be the last to have it, and that his name would never be in the rafters. Not that that’s a problem, because he’s probably gone after this contract anyway.
I think he should give it up and pick a new number if they go through with it — it could be a really special Ray Bourque moment.
www.battleofcali.com
I hope he goes on to sign
A 10-year extension in 2013 so that he keeps that number for a very long time :).
Seriously though, I don’t think he’ll bolt after his next contract. He didn’t have to sign a 5-year deal and he seems very interested in staying with Getz and Perry.
But I digress. They could grandfather in Bobby like they did Rivera when MLB retired 42. Then again, the Yankees will probably find some creative way to retire both numbers.
The only caveat to retiring 9 is that I don’t think it should be the first number in the rafters. Irrational or not, there are upset Ducks fans that could probably handle Paul’s number being retired, just not before Teemu.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 8:43 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
But if Teemu’s there, in uniform, and loves it? They’ll begrudge that?
I don’t think it happens without a very public push from Teemu, though — it really could all be up to him.
www.battleofcali.com
I'm not saying they're right
But yeah, I’ve met plenty of Ducks fans (that are season ticket holders) that HATE Kariya. It would be one thing if the bitching comes from a random person, but the fact that a vocal group of your important customers still feel this way would give the team pause. It’s just not a wise move from a management perspective for Paul to be first.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 8:55 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
This is why we are the laughing stock of the NHL, our season ticket holders are irrational.
I don’t mean you, Robby. Obviously, you haven’t been around long enough to know the drama. Bobby Hull left the Blackhawks for more money. BOBBY HULL!!!
People can be bitter all they want, but it won’t undo the amazing things he did while he played here. Those season ticket holder you mentioned need to get over themselves and give the guy a little credit for making our organization respectable.
I think they could get over it
But I just don’t think they can stomach him going first. It’s dumb, but I think they want Teemu’s number first.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 9:17 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I like PK but even I want #8 up there first. Teemu has been the heart and soul of this team for a very long time and his name needs to go up first. And no I am not biased one bit even though I wear a #8 jersey to the games. Not at all. Nope not this guy. Well maybe….
by Newport Rebel on Jul 5, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I wear an 8 to every game, and I still think that Paul’s number should go up first. I’m just saying, if Payl hadn’t been a standout in desperate need of scoring help, would we have gotten Selanne. We all love Teemu, but Payl is the reason he ended up in California the first time, and Paul took the heat for both oftgem going to Colorado. If Kariya isn’t the bad guy that offseason, maybe Teemu isn’t welcomed back so lovingly by the Anaheim faithful.
by Daniel AC on Jul 5, 2011 9:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah but Teemu got us the Cup. Ok the really the shut down line did but bear with me. If Paul hand co had found a way to beat NJ in game 7 of the 03 sesaon, Kariya would have gone down in So Cal and hockey lore. They didn’t but Teemu and Co did bring the prize home. I know we have gotten into it before but #9 is a tough subject between Duck fans. Lets just get #8 up there for ALL the fans. That first number needs to be something all the Anaheim fans want. It needs to set the tone for all the numbers to follow. Fans are still stupid over #9 but #8 should be a no brainer.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 5, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
But without 9, there is no 8. Anaheim fans need to get over themselves and do what’s right. It’s bad enough Kariya never got to wear the new jersey because of this stupidity. First star, first number.
I have to admit, the more Anaheim fans sanctify Selanne, the less I like him. I don’t understand why he gets a pass, but Kariya doesn’t.
by Daniel AC on Jul 5, 2011 1:16 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Regardless of Kariya bringing Teemu with us, the cup argument carries a lot of water.
I agree 9 should be retired, but I wouldn’t do it before 8. At the same time I feel would be best, I think that at the very least it would remind the still angry fans of the magic he brought us.
I don’t think the Cup argument should carry a lot of water. I’m not saying Selanne didn’t score a clutch goal, but it’s not like he was the Conn Smythe winner. Who knows what the Ducks could have done in 2003 if Disney was willing to shell out for guys like Pronger and Niedermayer. Imagine what Paul could have done if Disney actually cared about building a winner.
I hate reading the argument that an organization shouldn’t do something because the fans don’t want it.
If customers rule the day, then they should just poll season ticket holders for every decision. In Atlanta, they thought they could make some money with more black players, maybe then all the racist fanbases could have all white teams, y’know, if it’s what the season ticket holders want. Whatever brings them in the gate, right? Customer is always right.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 5, 2011 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think that's a fair comparison
I’m not asking management to defer to the fans on how the team is run day to day or who they sign. I’m asking them to consider fan on a superfluous act that does not impact the team’s performance.
I mean, honestly, jersey retirements are done just for fans. They are not a business decision. So if it’s a fan-oriented act, why wouldn’t you consider their opinion?
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 11:43 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Should have said
That jersey retirements are not a hockey operations decision. Don’t know how business slipped in there since this is ostensibly a marketing promotion.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 11:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, I mean, I’d argue it’s done for the player, too. And if you look at the retirement of Niedermayer’s number, that seems to be a dialogue between Scott and Lou. The Ducks may not have retired a number yet, but the idea that the decision to retire it automatically rests with the season ticket holders is fallacious. That’s not always how it’s done.
And my comparison stands because people, in a group, are stupid. They’re prone to ugliness and bitterness and the whole inner-PR campaign that caused most of the hatred. You should never bend to people that are bitter that Paul Kariya “abandoned” them, anymore than you should take the fans who cried for Sakic because he was “always there for them” seriously. Anyone who makes the business of the game that personally is a clinical case.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 5, 2011 12:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Who “takes” my iPhone autocorrect wouldn’t let me say
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 5, 2011 12:05 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd argue
And I’d suspect many organizations would support this, that the decision to retire a jersey is 95% driven by a desire to attract or please fans. Sure, you’re honoring the player, but you’re also getting butts in the seats. Otherwise, you’d never promote it and make a big deal out if it.
Here’s an example: Tony Gwynn retired in 2001. The Padres waited five years to retire his number, and probably would have waited longer but his pending HOF induction forced their hand. The FO probably would have waited longer because the team was doing well and attendance was good.
Fast forward to this year, where Trevor Hoffman just announced his retirement a few years ago.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 12:15 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Damnit, posted early.
Fast forward to this year where Trevor Hoffman just announced his retirement a few months ago. But the Padres are retiring his number in August because they desperately need to boost attendance. Now if this is mostly about the player, why wait five years on Gwynn and five months on Hoffman? Because it’s about business.
I’m not defending the Kariya-haters. But I am saying that there’s no reason to stir up resentment by retiring Kariya first.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 12:18 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Why wait five minutes on Gwynn? One of the best hitters the game has ever had.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 5, 2011 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re arguing based on baseball. Im pointing you right to Lou who doesn’t retire numbers. The Ducks haven’t proven themselves to be the Avs in terms of playing fast and loose with the retirements, but it’s worth noting that IN THE NHL, the number retirement isn’t automatically a fan decision. The WHA made it that once upon a time, and I have no problem with someone accusing the Avs sticking to their WHA roots by retiring everyone in sight, but the number retirement has some validity in the NHL.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 5, 2011 1:38 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough
My only experience with jersey dependents come from the baseball world. I still think it’s a significant marketing move but I guess I could concede that the player component is as important as you say it is.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 1:45 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
heat.
You know, I confess to being extremely vocal with my hurt feelings regarding PK’s leaving. When I manned the Girl with a Puck blog, I referred to him as “the evil PK”. =/ I mean, we’re 10+ years away from the fiasco, and I still held onto the bitter pain of what I deemed his betrayal.
I’ve already stated, numerous times, that I’ve got conflicted feelings about his retirement and the way he went out. It’s not the way I would’ve liked to have seen him go out, and yet, there’s some kind of sick, smug satisfaction I drew from it.
This is a fabulous post, giving me lots of different ideas to consider. I agree that Teemu’s number needs to be retired when he goes, and that it would probably hurt less to see Teemu’s # go up first before Paul’s.
But there is one thing that nudges me just over the line in favor of retiring the number is Earl Sleek’s comment: “if not for PK, I wouldn’t be a Ducks fan today.” That’s true of me as well, and the thing about it is: whatever happened when he left, it doesn’t erase the overwhelming good he did for us before that.
--Finny, formerly of Girl with a Puck
www.girlwithapuck.com
I think this is a fair understanding. I fully understand the emotional reaction, even if Kariya did just make a business decision, no matter whatthings like this hurt. However, the one bad can’t erase all the good.
Thanks for your comment.
by Daniel AC on Jul 5, 2011 10:51 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree
There was a long time where if you ever asked my opinion of Kariya, I would have gladly spit on his name. However, I was only in high school when it happened, and the finer points of salaries eluded me. As far as I saw it, Kariya said he would be back and then slapped us as he left.
But I’ve changed.
I’ve grown up, I understand the reasons why he left, and although my anger has subsided he will still never hold a spot in my heart like Teemu has, but then again I have many different reasons for that (I was extremely lucky as a kid and met both of them a number of times. Kariya was always kind of a jerk and very anti social while every single experience with Teemu was amazing. I went to his house for Halloween when I was 8, told him I was a fan, he went inside to find a card of himself, signed it, gave it to me and then talked to me for a good 10 minutes on his doorstep).
I agree that Kariya’s number should be retired, but I think it should happen after or at the same time as Teemu’s. Sure Kariya may be the reason that Teemu showed up, but when it comes down to it, Kariya should absolutely take a backseat to Teemu, Teemu helped us get a cup, Kariya didn’t, not to take anything away from Kariya’s amazing and jaw-dropping talents (he was a god on the ice), but that alone is reason enough. It would be strange to retire Kariya’s jersey before Teemu’s, it feels wrong.
I think it really depends on how you look at a number being retired. If you look at it as being for the fans, then I see your point. If it’s seen as honoring the player’s contribution’s to the organization, then no one’s jersey should go up before Paul’s.
The guy manned up for an joke of an organization and made it respectable. If it weren’t for Kariya, Selanne never would have contributed to the Ducks winning the cup, because they wouldn’t have been in Anaheim anymore.
by Daniel AC on Jul 5, 2011 10:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Isn’t it for both?
The idea of hanging a jersey up in the rafters is obviously so fans can look at it and remember legends of the past. Yet at the same time, it shouldn’t be just who the fans loved for so long, it should also be towards honoring the player’s contributions, like you said.
Even if it is seen as a player’s contribution, it matters on what you view it as. If it’s something like captaining a Disney team for so long, or if it’s an average of points per game as a Duck (Teemu wins it, but just barely, they were both point per game guys in Ducks uniforms).
But I don’t like the argument that Kariya’s place on the team made it possible for both Teemu to come and for the Ducks to still exist, although the first one is absolutely true, the second reasoning behind that argument is hard to get behind since it’s founded upon “what if.” We don’t know if the Ducks would have ceased to exist or not, there’s just no way of knowing for sure.
I think if you look at the fact that this city had trouble supporting a successful hockey team, I don’t think it’s much of a what if scenario. Moreover, Selanne was never a captain here in Anaheim, at least not on a consistent basis. He was only the captain when Kariya was hurt,
As for points, Paul had to produce on his own for a while, and he successfully did it. Paul’s ability to evolve into a star forced the Ducks to get him help, because Paul’s talent drew attention to the fact that the team wasn’t producing to match his star power. Thus, Teemu. If Paul doesn’t do that, what do you think happens? Interest would have dropped, the Disney Ducks didn’t spend money on free agents until Bryan Murray. I’m just not sure the team makes it that far when fans would have had no reason to attend games
Haha, no I agree that it’s a logical assumption, but I’m naturally averted to most “what if” scenarios regardless of their likeliness, particularly when it involves the past and alternate realities that would come into fruition due to such events.
Paul absolutely did all that, and more power to him for it. But he wasn’t the one man show for too long. He had a great first year, did amazing the second year and that’s when Teemu came in during the 95 96 season. While on the team together Teemu regularly out produced Kariya in terms of both goals and overall points. Not that it was by a huge margin, and Kariya also had the defensive responsibilities of a center.
Granted Kariya is probably THE reason Teemu is here. But I don’t think he was as crucial in keeping the Ducks around as you say. He only had one full season without Teemu prior to Selanne’s arrival. After that it became the “wow did those two just do that?” show.
Which brings me back to my initial argument, they were both essential to the Ducks, their worth perhaps equal, and they played best with each other. Retire them together.
I would want to retire PK if not for Bobby wearing #9. I’d say, give it a few, retire #8, see if Bobby signs somewhere else, and if Bobby does stay, maybe look into starting a ring of honor? Like a place to honor great players that maybe don’t necessarily deserve a full # retirement?
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by Bleys on Jul 5, 2011 10:38 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Retire It....
There is absolutely no way you can argue against retiring his number. Without Pk there is no Teemu, there is no cup run in 2003, and there is no ducks team that you all love today. He brought this team out of the depths of the unknown teams in the NHL and thrust greatness upon it. His “betrayal” was more like he was betrayed and shunned so we could sign Fedorov. Retire his number this year, let Teemu be there to be the one who does it for him, and let him join the FO somewhere. End of story.
I can kind of agree with that. Personally, I think retiring Kariya’s numbers should also be considered a small consolation for a ridiculous banishment and, as Arthur noted, for the brevity of his career.
by Daniel AC on Jul 5, 2011 2:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Definitely. I think retiring both numbers at the same time would appease people who want Kariya first and people who want Selanne first. Considering how much of an impact they both had on the ducks and how good they were playing together it would only be fitting that their numbers are retired at the same time.
totally see this one happening
Not a bad idea. And totally possible. It actually solves a lot of issues. There wouldn’t be [as much] concern that people would boo at the ceremony (unless they were just totally classless, and c’mon, we’re Duck fans… we’re not Kings fans. heh. can’t resist a dig, even if I have no real heat behind it anymore)…. Fans won’t want to ruin the moment for Teemu, and out of respect for him, I think we’d tolerate the #8 & #9 going up together… and in a way, HOW COMPLETELY FITTING for them to go up together! Together, they created some magic on our ice back in the day. And while hearts will almost always belong to Teemu and… begrudging respect (mixed with some bitterness) might be allotted to Paul, I doubt people would want to ruin the moment for the sake of a fan favorite. :) Brilliant. Let’s campaign for that when the time comes! :)
--Finny, formerly of Girl with a Puck
www.girlwithapuck.com
by girlwithapuck on Jul 7, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Put a gun to my head and I say yes his number should be retired. In comparison, Teemu has earned the honors of it first by making the Ducks his team. Kariya, on the other hand, was the team for many years but never endeared himself to the fans as openly be it by fault of himself or not. Regardless of that, his abilities on the ice were second to none while he was here, even when partnered with Teemu and for that I have always thought of him as the Duck’s legend to be honored at some point of the teams future. The only other player that might also enter this discussion in my mind is J.S. Giguere…
I think we’ve had this conversation before, so I’ll just repeat my previous thought on this matter. Nobody gets their number retired before Teemu. You can retire 27, 35, 9, or even 20, but none of those should precede 8.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
You could certainly make a case for retiring 9 first, however the only argument I can see for that position is that Kariya played before Teemu. When you say “without 9 there wouldn’t have been 8,” I think that speaks more of just how important Teemu is to this franchise. The dude is the face of the franchise. He’s their most popular player. It will be a while before someone else passes him up on the list of franchise statistics (ie, GP, goals, assists, points, etc.).
Would you contend that Kariya is more important to this franchise than Teemu? I really think that’s what dictates who’s number should go up in the rafters first. The Ducks don’t have any right now, so the first one should represent the player who contributed most to the franchise, not just the one that played on it first.
I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell
That’s a pretty logical argument. If you know that Teemu is going to be retiring in the very near future, wouldn’t you want to save that special first spot for the guy who most represents the franchise at it’s very best?
At the very least why not take this chance to retire both of their numbers on the same night? They were probably best with each other on the ice, why not recognize that in a small way? I mean why not do that and take advantage of all the extra tickets you would sell for that game if advertised properly. Do it during a big rivalry game that will be exciting, and attract some old viewers back to the games, boost up the ticket sales.
Don't waste it on a rivalry game
If you’re going two-fer, do it against columbus or phoenix.
by PhantomPretender on Jul 5, 2011 9:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I do think that Kariya was more important to the franchise, as I said somewhere else on this thread, if he doesn’t endure with an awful organization and lend it credibility, I don’t think the Ducks would have lasted in Anaheim. If he didn’t captain all those subpar teams to a few a decent finishes, including a Western Conference Final banner, then the Ducks wouldn’t have lasted as long as they did. This is a bad hockey market, but Paul’s star power made it viable. He is the only reason the franchise lasted long enough to win a Cup in California. As such, he should be deemed the most important.
I wonder if 35 and 27 will ever get retired.
by Newport Rebel on Jul 5, 2011 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If we don't retire 35...
it would be a crime. If we retired 9 or anyone else other than 8 and NOT 35, I would be absolutely appalled. I don’t have anything against Kariya any more now that I’m much older and actually know what happened aside from what I overheard from friends and fellow fans. And I think his number SHOULD be retired, but to not retire Giguere’s number as well would be monstrous. He did far too much for us.
" The argument that he left too is ridiculous." – Jen
Actually, it isn’t. While getting traded sucks, and Teemu said he was happy to be with the Sharks because they were “willing to pay the price to be a winner,” Paul Kariya’s dealing with Disney were highly publicized as ridiculous. His first request for a raise was met with a claim that thu couldn’t afford to pay the secretaries if they paid him more. I mean, the reasons not to deal with Disney if the CBA said you didn’t have to were many, and they didn’t just belong to selanne.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 5, 2011 5:39 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
First off, I’m a Penguins fan just visiting. While I’m not as aware as you lifers about the Ducks, what I do remember is 2003. Up until then, Kariya has been one of my favorite players to watch. My 2 cents is that you should retire Kariya. 9 years is a long time in pro sports, 9 years of distinguished service to a fledgling team. It needs to be recognized.
However, it shouldn’t be so soon. Organizations set a precedent for how many players have their numbers retired. In Pittsburgh, having only Mario’s & Michel Briere’s numbers in the rafters means that we’re not going to see many jerseys sent up in the future. Beyond Crosby & maybe possibly unlikely Jagr. Honestly, for a franchise who has yet to retire any numbers, Teemu must go first. Kariya, who is the first Mighty Duck, shouldn’t be that far behind. That & I’m still holding out for Giggy.
If Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there too.
I’m not sold on retiring Jiggy’s number. I think people are getting a little too into retiring numbers and I don’t know if Giguere’s should be retired. Personally, I think it should just be Kariya and Selanne. Giguere is still a little further down the line.
I feel like Herbet has as much claim as Giguere. No he never won that cup but he did backstop the team for years.
I kind of agree with you, DavidBL. I loved Jiggy & Hebert both, but… despite the cup & Conn Smythe… I guess I just need something [intangible] more to feel like retiring Jiggy’s # would be justified.
--Finny, formerly of Girl with a Puck
www.girlwithapuck.com
by girlwithapuck on Jul 7, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Hello ladies and gents… I’m a Rangers fan, but Paul Kariya is the reason why I’ve also followed the Ducks. I love Bobby Ryan, but was shocked when he was allowed to wear the #9.
I agree that #8 and #9 should be retired at the same night in the same ceremony, and that Ryan should be allowed to rock the 9 as Mariano Rivera is the #42.
Retire it.
Paul Karyia was without a doubt the starplayer that made this franchise. I can’t understand that childish behavior about his departure… sure i was pissed myself, but he didn’t stab us or some crap i’ve been reading for 8 years.
He left the Team after 9 years to get his freedom and to get a shot at the cup. Everybody can easily understand that move if he’s not on that rediculus PK hate campain.
I argue there may has never been a player so important to a franchise then PK to the Ducks. I garantie you, that this little disney PR gag would have ended way before 2005, without one of the greatest player in PK, Anaheim would have surely failed to evolve from an PR gag to a real hockey market.
Hell, i even argue that most of the Ducksfans from that time are just Anaheim fans because of the magic PK brought to the ice with Selanne.
So for the love of god, retire his number, no duck will ever deserve it more then Paul
Lots of good points. I like the idea of retiring 8 and 9 at the same time. They were the dynamic duo together when they played and it may be kind of neat that they get honored together. It should also keep the childish grudge holders quiet. It should be retired for what he has done for the organization, and by retiring the number it might help some of those fans with grudges get over it. The Ducks have forgiven him, its about time the fans did. It’s like parents telling their kids they’re being petty about something and to get over it.
I understand what PK did for the Ducks.
But with new owners, GM and atmosphere you would think PK would at least reach out to the fans. I know as a player he doesn’t owe us a single thing, but to acknowledge the fans and reach out and have some sort of closure with all of us involved. If I were PK I would beat the Ducks organization to the punch and come to terms with what happened and make things right for all of us involved with the Ducks. Retire the number and force Bobby Ryan to take back his number 54. Jen made some great arguments playing devil’s advocate, but whether we like it or not #9 will always be associated with PK both good and bad.
If the guy wants to be private, let him be private. I appreciate good quality in a person as much as anybody, but I also acknowledge that there are bad people who do great work. I don’t see why Kariya owes us anything more than a good job. He played his heart out, represented the organization with class, and lent credibility to a joke of a franchise, contract fulfilled. What kind of closure do you want?
It totally pains me to agree with Daniel AC on this comment. =/ But Kariya owed no explanation — just solid performance. To revisit the situation now, despite the hurt feelings of fans (myself included), would be awkward, ill-timed, and probably — insincere. Not to mention, highly improbable. No way Kariya gets up and says, “Hey fans, sorry for breaking your hearts back in the day. Let’s just move on, eh?” If we did the whole shoe-on-the-other-foot business, maybe we could see it the way he saw it: as a business decision that he was entitled to.
--Finny, formerly of Girl with a Puck
www.girlwithapuck.com
by girlwithapuck on Jul 7, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
If Ryan really wanted to keep his #9, he could always claim a grandfather clause, as he was wearing it before the number was actually retired. I don’t think i’ve seen a grandfather clause put into use in the NHL about numbers (but i’ve seen it in baseball, but it is a possibility
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Talking toilet, you may call me Jane.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 6, 2011 4:41 AM PDT reply actions
I’m not even angry at Paul for leaving the Ducks for Colorado. Looking back in hindsight, he did the franchise a favor. What were they willing to pay Teemu and him, ten million combined? Twelve million? They weren’t worth it, not remotely. If we had paid those guys, odds are we can’t afford Scotty, let alone Scotty and Pronger, and that means no Cup. Thank you, Paul Kariya. Thank you for stabbing the franchise in the back! Wait, can you stab us a little lower and to the left—- ahhhh, that’s the spot.
In any event, I’m fine with eventually retiring #9, but not before Teemu. Here’s a guy who exhibited loyalty after seasons in which he could fetch a mint on the open market, signing at a discount no less, a guy who says, “if I play, it’s going to be in Anaheim.” He deserves to have his jersey be the first one up in the rafters. Giguere is second. After that, we can hold our nose and raise #9.
We paid Fedorov 10 million that offseason. I’m just saying, we spent about 2 million less, which is practically negligible.
why....
does it seem like there are only like 4 or 5 real ducks fans who know about this? I was furious when they signed him with Teemu’s and Paul’s money.
uhhhh....
Not trying to be a jerk here….. but go read up on tha whole mess…… then look at Daniels response….. then let us know what you really feel.
what really angers me is the lack of backup plan there from Murray. His plan didn’t work, okay, but he didn’t exactly restructure payroll or get two guys for Paul Kariya’s money; he spent it all in one place again.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Jul 8, 2011 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know about retiring 35 and 27. Giguere was the back bone of the 02-03 cup run but I don’t think he had the same impact on the franchise as Kariya and Selanne. As for Niedermayer, I will always remember him first in a New Jersey Devils uniform. They were both amazing players but neither of them had the impact Selanne and Kariya have had. I will say though, that if I had to pick one of the two, I would retire Giguere’s. However, I stand by the idea that Kariya and Selanne’s numbers should be the first two retired.
I don’t know about retiring 35 and 27. Giguere was the back bone of the 02-03 cup run but I don’t think he had the same impact on the franchise as Kariya and Selanne. As for Niedermayer, I will always remember him first in a New Jersey Devils uniform. They were both amazing players but neither of them had the impact Selanne and Kariya have had. I will say though, that if I had to pick one of the two, I would retire Giguere’s. However, I stand by the idea that Kariya and Selanne’s numbers should be the first two retired.
should be first, followed by 35 and probably 27. 35 deserves it for his playoff play if nothing else.
As for 9, wait until Bobby Ryan deserves it, and retire it for him.

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