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Identity Crisis

ROBBY:

The Anaheim Ducks are at an interesting point as a franchise. The last vestiges of the Cup-winning 2006-2007 team are all but gone (Teemu Selanne (sorta), Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaf, Francois Beauchamin, and George Parros are all that remain), and the team has noticeably pivoted away from the physical, defensively-dominant style that earned Anaheim the first Cup in California history. With the team seemingly in a transition toward a more youth-oriented lineup, it remains to be seen what the Ducks identity will be moving forward.

For the sake of argument, it's fair to characterize a team based on one of the following four identities. While most teams are a blend of two of these personalities, some teams clearly fall into one of the four personas:

Star-divide

  • Offensive Attack - The focus is on scoring, both at even strength and with the man-advantage. Scoring may be dispersed through the lineup or focused in one or two lines, but such teams rank in the upper third of Goals For across the league and typically feature one or more 30+ goal guys and 60+ point guys. In recent history, teams like Vancouver, Chicago, Detroit, Washington and Tampa Bay have personified this approach.
  • Defensive Stalwarts - Keeping the puck out of the net. Great defensive teams rank low in GA/G and while they can kill off a penalty when they need to, they tend to avoid such situations altogether. Strong defensive teams may or may not have great goaltenders, but they typically give up few shots anyway. Recent examples would be Nashville, Boston, New Jersey, and Los Angeles.
  • Balanced Approach - Teams aren't loaded with many superstars (one or two standouts, but typically not many more) but are marked by solid depth and contributions throughout the lineup. Teams won't set the world on fire in terms of offense or defense, but don't feature glaring weaknesses either. Teams may have one or more stars and might excel in a particular area like special teams or goaltending. Can often be hard to compete on this basis. Recent examples include Dallas, Montreal, and Calgary.
  • Physical Presence-Push around the opposition and intimidate them. Teams are usually high in penalties but also tend to have strong defenses (numbers can be obscured by a degree due to elevated shorthanded situations). Scoring is usually achieved by establishing a presence in the net, rather than sniping or finesse. Recent examples include Philadelphia, Boston, and St. Louis.

It can be difficult to put a team into one category as most teams are strong in several areas. However, it's pretty clear that a team usually emphasizes one key strategy in the overall development and construction of the team. And while this is far from a perfect system, it serves as a reasonable baseline from which to build your roster. In fact, I would argue that teams that have bought into a particular mentality or system can be more dangerous and can enjoy more consistent success.

Looking back at Cup teams since the lockout, I would roughly categorize the winners as follows:

Season

Team

Style

2005-2006

Carolina Hurricanes

Offense

2006-2007

Anaheim Ducks

Defense/Physical

2007-2008

Detroit Red Wings

Offense

2008-2009

Pittsburgh Penguins

Balance

2009-2010

Chicago Blackhawks

Offense/Defense

2010-2011

Boston Bruins

Defense/Physical

First off, I know it seems ludicrous to mark the Penguins as anything but an offense-first team, but outside of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, nobody on that team scored. But they had lots of guys with 30+ points and offered several pretty strong lines. Secondly, offense makes the most appearances on this list, with the 2009-2010 showcasing the truly frightening superb defense and offense combination that money can buy.

So what goes into establishing an identity? It comes down to two factors: the players and the coaching.

In the case of the Ducks, this seems particularly apt. Randy Carlyle has a reputation of being a defense-first kind of coach and the team that won it all was the one that ranked 7th in GA/G. The Cup team also featured the particularly strong defensive grouping of Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, and Beauchemin, as well as the infamous checking line of Travis Moen, Samuel Pahlsson, and Rob Niedermayer. So in the case of the 2006-2007 Ducks, it was a perfect storm of coaching and talent that combined to make the Ducks a defensive juggernaut that year.

Conventional wisdom seems to hold that most teams focus on defense first. After all, it's not exactly easy to score in the league and you could argue that it's easier to prevent goals than score them. Elite scorers tend to be more expensive, while a solid checking line and other blue-chip players can be more affordable and particularly effective in goal prevention.

However, real world results don't exactly bear this out. Sure, half of the past six teams to win a Cup had particularly strong defenses. But a majority of the last six teams that won a Cup also featured above average offenses. While it may be harder to retain offensive talent in the long-run, if you're got a limited window to make a run, an offensive approach seems to be a good idea.

Which brings us to the Ducks. Corey Perry, Ryan Getzlaf, and Lubomir Visnovsky are all signed for the next two-years. Cam Fowler becomes an RFA after that point and this is likely Teemu Selanne's last year. Given this two-year window, and the overall offensive talent on this team, I think it's a mistake for this team to focus on anything but offense. We certainly do not have the assets to be a strong defensive team and we no longer feature the same physical edge we displayed after the lockout (although the zebras have not apparently caught on to this). This team features the best line in hockey and one of the most offensively-gifted defenseman in the league. Throw in a strong PP, and it becomes clear which direction this team should head.

Our top prospects would also seem to lend credibility to such an approach. Guys like Emerson Etem, Devante Smith-Pelly, and Kyle Palmeiri are scorers. Sami Vatanen also appears to be an offensive defenseman and there's not a whole lot in the cupboard that suggests extreme defensive prowess.

All that said, I'm not entirely sure the Ducks have the right coach to capitalize on these assets. Carlyle has taken the Ducks to the playoffs on numerous occasions, but he has also over-worked his top guys. Either because he lacked the necessary players or because he believed it was the right approach, Carlyle frequently ran out the top line against the best from other teams (last year, the majority of Getzlaf's ice time began in the defensive end and among forward, third and fourth line guys enjoyed more favorable offensive zone starts than the top two lines).

I believe the key in 2010-2011, and moving forward, will be a strong, offensive third line. We already know that we have two pretty potent scoring lines, but I think it would do wonders for the top two lines if the third and fourth lines took some of the pressure off of them. I also think that part of this strategy will require defenseman like Fowler and Sbisa, and forwards like McMillan to take more chances on offense. Obviously we don't want to give up a ton of goals. But even with a healthy Jonas Hiller, the Ducks gave up an inordinate amount of shots. If that's going to be the case, then why not focus on maximizing your scoring chances when you have control of the puck?

The Ducks made a name for themselves as a rugged, defensively responsible team. But the talent has changed. The Ducks are now a team stocked with skilled players that can light the lamp with regularity. While it might be uncomfortable for Randy Carlyle to adapt to this new reality, I think it's imperative for this identity to take hold if the Ducks are to achieve success in the near- and long-term.

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He's fancy. He'll go glove.

by brokenyard on Aug 19, 2011 5:39 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

They’re dopplegangers anyway. The fact that they’re equally flamboyant is just a coincidence.

He's fancy. He'll go glove.

by brokenyard on Aug 19, 2011 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thunk it’s sad that Murray gav up on a team identity that won a Cup. As a fan, I embraced that identity. It was very West Coast: " we know you hate us, but we’re gonna run you all over this rink until you respect us."
As a fan it was the type of team I could identify with.

I suppose my main question is this: if offense is the key to championships, why didn’t those loaded Caps teams even sniff the Cup finals?

by Daniel AC on Aug 19, 2011 5:52 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Looking back at those teams

In addition to the sterling offense, they also featured pretty strong goaltending. In that respect, that’s a huge difference between us and the Caps and a potential explanation for their struggles.

by PhantomPretender on Aug 19, 2011 6:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

The Ducks offense in 2007 was anything but sterling, Selanne and McDonald were the only “skill” forwards on the team. The other guys used physical play to generate offense. PPG was so great to watch.

Another thing all of those teams have in common, a Norris or Selke, sometimes both, contender/winner. Maybe I’m old school, but I think elite defensive players are the key to championships. Guys who know how to play together can find ways to score goals, that’s why the playoffs are fullof unexpected scoring heroes. However, quality D almost always shuts down quality offense, moreso if there’s a great goalie behind it.

by Daniel AC on Aug 19, 2011 7:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I never said the Cup team was an offensive team

I labeled them defensive/physical. As for Selke/Norris, perhaps. I think Jonas is a better goalie than many of those offensive teams featured, so I think an offensive approach would be an effective plan for the team.

by PhantomPretender on Aug 19, 2011 8:02 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I’m sorry, I mentioned the identity of the 2007 team and then you referred back to the list. Since the Ducks were on the list, I assumed you were talking about their sterling offense too.

Hiller looked like he could be better than any of them, but he still hasn’t played a full season start to finish. It’s something he just has to do before he can really be an elite net minder.

Of the 6 teams you list, only two didn’t finish in the top ten in both offense and defense, Pittsburgh and Carolina. Three of them ranked higher in goals against per game than goals for per game. Furthermore, the Pens were the only team to feature an Art Ross or Maurice Richard winner. They were also the only team to be without a person who had won or been a finalist for the Norris or Selke. If you expand the Richard and Ross categories to include the top 3, then the Pens and Ducks are the only teams to have “finalists” for the top two offensive awards. Although, I’m sure you’ll find some top 5 and 10 guys in there.

Overall, I just see defense as being more of a focus. All of those teams were committed to having solid team defense. In fact, that was one of the first things Bylsma changed when he took over the Pens that season. I think offensive depth is important, but I think it’s something you take care of after you build a strong defensive foundation. I think the new NHL has shown that strong, deep D’s are the best way to find yourself in a Cup final.

by Daniel AC on Aug 19, 2011 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Ducks identity is a team with elite top-line talent, underrated defense and very good goaltending (that last one seems like it’s been part of Anaheim’s identity ever since the inaugural season, and I’m eternally thankful for it). Those are the pros of our identity. The cons are lack of scoring depth, lack of defensive forwards and penny pinching (which is a cause of the first two cons).

Just waiting until September

by Shackleford on Aug 19, 2011 6:46 PM PDT reply actions  

We all know what kind of identity the elite veterans of this team have. What we will find out is the identity of our young guns.

My only concern with the direction our team is going now is can they protect themselves… With Parros patrolling our lineup, people won’t get to out of line, but this team did have trouble dealing with teams that could hit last season. Unless people bulked up mean in the offseason, I can see the Ducks getting pushed around a little if their not careful. I mean that was hurdle that had to be overcome back in the formative years with Kariya and Selanne together. Post lockout finally saw a what I had always hoped for: kicking the eggplant and teal finesse deal and dawning the black, kicking asses and taking names. Weird that the team has in a way reverted back to that older style, but it makes sense in this era of hockey.

by cal-S- on Aug 20, 2011 10:17 AM PDT reply actions  

The good thing is that

all of our top guys will hit back. On top of that, guys like Beleskey, Sbisa, and Brookbank have shown a willingness to defend their teammates. I think we have enough of that physical edge that I can’t imagine we’ll be pushed around like we were in the Mighty Ducks days.

by PhantomPretender on Aug 20, 2011 10:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed, I do feel we could use a forward on the second line who can do that. It is kind of small. Our D has to worry about getting a penalty in offensive zone fights, limiting their ability to protect palyers. Having a presence up front might help eliminate incidents like that one with LA last year. Kunitz was that guy for Mcdonald and Selanne. Not that anyone on that line wouldn’t defend their teammates, just that they’re not really suited for it.

by DavidBL on Aug 20, 2011 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m with Cal on this one. It isn’t just dropping the gloves. It’s being able to wear down the opposition with physical play. It’s being able to get payback without dropping the gloves. You need a Brad May, a Travis Moen, a guy who can play intense and physical and make guys think twice when they go into the corner to get the puck. It’s an important psychological edge. We used to be a team that hit up and down the order. You can have size and skill, the most annoying part of The Checking Line was how well they just trapped guys in their own zone. They wore down the D, they pitched in offensively. Murray has let the physical edge this team enjoyed deteriorate. It’s rough because Carlyle loves the cycle game. The team is asking him to play his system with players who aren’t meant to play his system. I’m not the brightest crayon in the box, but maybe that’s not the best way of doing things.

by Daniel AC on Aug 20, 2011 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't the talent dictate the style, not vice versa?

A majority of our core guys that have come up through the system are scorers. For whatever reason, we’re not drafting bruising, defensive guys. We’ve been getting skill guys.

In my opinion, you should build the team and adopt an identity based on your core players. While at one time our core guys were physical, defesnive guys, that’s just no longer the case.

Ultimately, it’s easier to adapt the coaching to match the talent than it is to adapt the talent to match the coaching.

The drafted talent has pretty much pushed our team toward scoring and away from defense. And that’s a result of decisions made by Burke and Murray.

by PhantomPretender on Aug 20, 2011 1:55 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not really. I think coaches try to implement a particular systemthat they think is vest for winning hockey games. GMs pick coaches based on that system, among other factors, so the GM should get the necessary talent.

Also, the core talent on this team plays physical hockey, well 2/3 of it. Backhanded Bobby comments aside, there is the potential for a physical game, DSP plays a great one, and Etem has shown a willingness to hit, although it’s not his thing. Holland has the size to hit.

What we don’t have are the bottom 6 guys who can hit and contribute. You don’t have to draft to a style. But your roster should reflect the style you want to play. Right now there’s a conflicting message in the Ducks organization. Murray is asking Carlyle to play his system with players who dont fit.

by Daniel AC on Aug 20, 2011 2:37 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm confused

You say that Murray has let the team get away from it’s phsyical core and then when I point out that Murray and Burke’s drafts have tended toward offensive talents, you say we do have physical guys. It doesn’t seem like both of these things can be true.

At the end of the day, this team has several elite players and a useful supporting cast. If Carlyle can’t find success with that kind of talent, it seems wrong to blame the GM. Other teams would love to have our guys. And at the end of the day, we have the guys we have. So we can complain and wish that Murray would have got different guys or we can find a way to leverage and best use the guys we have. It’s not like Murray has handcuffed Carlyle with bad players. It’s time for the style to evolve to match the current makeup of the roster and not the style that worked with guys we used to have.

by PhantomPretender on Aug 20, 2011 3:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

A good coach will be able to make use of the type of players he has. And for that, I think there should be some credit given to Carlyle and Murray for making the transition somewhat successfully (one missed playoff appearance is pretty good in the western conference considering).

However, I also am in the boat that believes that the way prospects are picked is based mostly on their offensive talents. Thus, for them to develop into an NHL-level player they are expected to learn or develop the less tangible parts of their games (defensive positioning, checking, consistency, leadership). This is where the real money is made as a GM and scouting department.

Do I think the Ducks lack size and raw physicality? Yes. Do I think that some of our prospects can’t develop those tools in their maturation as NHL-level players? No. Palmieri is known to be a bit of a sandpaper guy and we have yet to see it. We know that Devo is physical but we will just have to see if it’s as effective against sentinels as it is against juniors.

by cal-S- on Aug 20, 2011 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let me clarify Robby, I was pointing out that these kids can play a physical game and we should require that rather than simply focus on developing their offensive talents. More importantly, having a few core guys who can play physical in no way means that the physical identity is being maintained. It means there’s a couple of guys on the roster who can hit. An identity is a top down commitment to a particular style of play.

As for the coach/GM whose fault is it if the talent doesn’t work thing, I’m a top down guy when it comes to responsibility. The GM chooses the coach and the talent. I guess my question is this: why do you hire someone who likes a particular style of play and Thn go get players who don’t play that way? It’s like asking someone to make you pot roast and then handing them a chicken. At that point, is it the person’s fault for not making you pot roast out of chicken. GMs choose the coach, essentially choosing the system, and then they go get the talent. Everything is the GMs fault.

by Daniel AC on Aug 20, 2011 5:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have to agree here that we are lacking some size down the roster. I recall a few games last year where it felt like we were getting hit out of the rink. Do we need to be a gritty team, per se? I don’t think so, but we do need someone patrolling the wing on the 2nd or 3rd line who can inflict some damage. Thats tough to ask DSP to do, but it honestly seems like he would take on any challenge. Kid wants to play. Bell isn’t that type of player, despite his size. I think the answer may be Patrick Maroon (great trade btw, getting him). He has the size and the edge to fill this role. If he has a good camp, I think its hard to deny him a spot with the overall lack of size on the team.

I’m not going to argue with daniel about his ‘everything is the GMs fault’ comment, no need to engage in such an absolute comment…. what I will say is that the last few years have been a transition, a transition to youth. Randy had a lot of moving parts the last few years and he constantly went back to what he knew he could count on. Now, he has some continuity. The D-corps is the same. He knows he can trust McMillan. Palmieri and Bonino played some big minutes late in the playoffs (it was too late, I know). He now has a versatile guy in Cogs at his disposal… I expect that with the trust gained by some of the young players, and the lessons learned by overplaying his horses, will result in more playing time from the 3rd and 4th lines. That is the key. Those players need to play. For their sake and for the RPG’s sake. I think that happens this year, and with great results.

by Fish06 on Aug 23, 2011 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

The only thing that isn’t the GMs fault is injuries. Of course, when you invest in a guy made of gingerbread…

by Daniel AC on Aug 23, 2011 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who is made of gingerbread?

by Fish06 on Aug 24, 2011 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a thing we used to say about Wisniewski when we’d see him limping off the week once a week. In this instance I used it as a general term for anyone the GM might acquire who is injury prone. I didn’t mean there were any now, although, I think Hiller still hasn’t reached the 60 GP in a season plateau.

by Daniel AC on Aug 24, 2011 4:03 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

100%

Is the GM’s fault… he is essentially the team CEO… it would be like… for example a Compute Harware Engineering company hirin a Computer Software Production Manager…and then hiring computer information specialists to work for that guy…. wrong pieces for a succesful business

by Riley Popp on Aug 24, 2011 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s all I’m saying.

by Daniel AC on Aug 24, 2011 4:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I would only argue that the coach can be seen as just another piece of the puzzle. If we need a coach that is more offensively minded, then a GM is just as responsible as acquiring the right coach as he is the right players. That being said, it does seem that there is some disconnect right now between the team’s style and its coach’s. But I think Murray and the organization have made a commitment to the coach and either his “style” will change or the personnel will.

by Kevin Riach on Aug 26, 2011 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree. In fact, it’s something I say with some frequency.

by Daniel AC on Aug 29, 2011 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

We have the firepower

but how quickly would things change if we had a lockdown checking line like we had with Pahlsson, Moen and Robbie Nieds? A defense with Scotty and Pronger will always get the pub, but that checking line made us a defensive force as much as anything else. If we can find ourselves a top checking line (easier said than done), I think our identity shifts right back to balanced. As you hinted at with the Penguins, identities are as much about the third and fourth lines as they are the stars. I’m still waiting to see our third and fourth lines.

Two roads diverged in a wood and I – I tweeted my followers to ask which I should take

by Ryan Rosenblatt on Aug 23, 2011 11:31 PM PDT reply actions  

McMillan

We have discussed and argued about the 3rd line at length, but we haven’t really given any serious consideration to those holes being filled from within.

Mcmillan could/should be our guy at the 3C spot for the foreseeable future. I see a lot of David Bolland in his game. Will he be that shutdown guy this year? Maybe not completely, but he will put pucks in the net as his defensive game materializes. This year could be his breakout party.

As for what they put on either side of him, I don’t know. Our young talent suggests that it will be more skill/offensive oriented unit than a shutdown unit. Point is, that there are many options with all the young talent we have.

I have no problem with a youth movement on our 3rd line… Although, I would still like a guy like Madden (Drury was my 1st choice) to lead by example on that 4th line.

by Fish06 on Aug 24, 2011 8:26 AM PDT reply actions  

Love what youre saying here. McMillan and Cogs have experience and skills to be part of a defensively responsible line. When it comes to D I think people focus to much on size and not enough on speed, skill, and awareness. Scott wasn’t a “huge” Dman, but he was smart and fast. That is just as important as size, and I think both McMillan and Cogs possess those skills. I would love to see someone like DSP, Maroon, or even a “revamped” Beleskey help bring some size to the line to prevent that line from being bullied. I really like the way the team, and the 3rd line is shaping up. The 4th line on the other hand will be interesting. I love Parros and he has sorta symbolized “Ducks” style hockey over the last few years, but I think the team might be better off suiting up a 4th line of guys like Sexton, Bonino, and Palmari and just run with all the skill this team possesses. That way you have 4 legitimately dangerous lines that you can throw at opponents.

by Kevin Riach on Aug 24, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree completely about D not necessarily being about size, especially in todays NHL. I do still think there needs to be some size on that third line, we we’re pushed around a bit last year… Maroon was exactly who I was thinking about next to Mac. Throw in DSP, Cogs (although I think he’s going to be spending a lot of time opposite Teemu), Palmieri, etc; and you have the making of a very versatile and effective 3rd line… Cogs was far better defensively last year, and is a better all-around player, than he is getting credit for on this site. I can’t wait for us to enjoy what he brings.

The fourth line needs a vet center I think. We lack a bit of leadership in terms of ‘do as i do’ little things. Madden is a guy who is always doing what needs to be done. I think we see this in Mcmillan as well. He has great hockey sense and is a true student of the game. As he progresses, I see no limit to what he can become as a 3rd line center…. I would not be opposed to throwing together the rest of the young guys on the 4th line and seeing what they can do.

As I’ve said before, I think this team got through a transition period without much of a slump. I think Randy understands what he has now and will use his lineup more fluidly. I think that is the real test for him this year. Can he play and develop the kids as he did with Getz and Pears years ago? I think he knows he has to.

by Fish06 on Aug 24, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Everything I’ve read from The Register and the Ducks blog seems to point to Cogliano being the third line center. I’m not saying he couldn’t play the wing with Selanne, I’m just saying no one has given any indication that that’s an option.

I’m all for Cogs being a better player than I think he is; I just having seen any evidence to lead me to believe that’s the case just yet. After 50-60 games, I hope he has me singing a different tune.

by Daniel AC on Aug 24, 2011 4:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

You’re evidence comes from 2nd hand sources. Watch the games.

by Fish06 on Aug 25, 2011 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Which evidence? That he isn’t playing center or that he’s a better player than I think? I don’t know if the OC Register would be considered a second hand source. They’re talking to people in the organization. I also don’t think his statistics are a second hand source.

by Daniel AC on Aug 25, 2011 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

The OC Register saw it like this:

P 1) Ducks need to get a third line center this offseason.
P 2) They trade for a guy who plays center.
C) That guy must be the third line center.

Premise 1 was an assumption made by the media as soon as the offseason began. The Ducks only said the 3rd line needed to improve, not that they were going to go outside the orginization to do so.

Premise 2 is true. But he also can play wing and he can flat out fly. You know who else can flat out fly?

I see what the OC Register is trying to say, I do, but they’re simply assuming.

by Fish06 on Aug 25, 2011 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know where you came up with your premises, but you’re forgetting something, the OC Register talks to people in the organization. These aren’t ordinary unwarranted Premises.

Second, you’re assuming much more than the OC Register. The Register is making a deduction based on available evidence. You are speculating based on how you see the team. In other words, you’re making an assumption based on what you see the need as. I’ll go one further and say that the assumption that Selanne will play with Cogs is more of an assumption than a deduction, because no one from anywhere has sad that it’s a possibility. It’s a possibility that you created

I do know who else can fly, Dan Sexton. That kid has jump. He’d probably look good with a play making center…

by Daniel AC on Aug 25, 2011 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

So McMillan-Cogliano-Sexton. I would be okay with that line. Its closer to a 3rd scoring line that the team has said they wanted. Cogs is better in the circle than McMillan so why switch them around let Cogs do what they signed him to do. I’m more worried about our 4th line. I like Bonino but I just don’t see him as being ready.

by DavidBL on Aug 25, 2011 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why does the register not say, ‘hey, we talked to the team and this is what they said’? I haven’t seen a single article quoting a member of the organization saying that cogs is our 3rd line center. No where… I have seen these quotes though:

“He has a fresh start here. I have no idea where he is going to play here. That will be for Randy and him. The chemistry that happens through camp and through the beginning of the season will determine where he plays…He’s very versatile and we like that here.” -Bob Murray

“We think he can fit into a much higher level of player than he’s established and [we can] surround him with players he can mesh with…He’s another young player with some skill and speed.” -Randy Carlyle

Thats pretty open ended to me… I am deducing based on what is said by the team, not by the media.

I never said he he definitely is not going to play 3rd C, I just think he will mesh best with Selanne.

You are right tho, sexton could mesh well too. I’m essentially saying that Cogs gives us a lot of options, as do some of our other young players.

DavidBL, I think everyone is getting a little carried away with the faceoff numbers. It is a concern, yes. But these are things that can be fixed, much like our team defense…. I hope Bonino makes a jump this year, he is another player that could give us options.

There is a ton to be hopeful and excited about this team. Really looking forward to seeing how it all progresses.

by Fish06 on Aug 26, 2011 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’ll address Carlyle’s quotation first, since it says the least. Expecting a guy to be better, or “higher level of player” doesn’t indicate anywhere on the depth chart. You’re saying that expecting a guy to play better and expecting him to move up the depth chart are the same thing.

As for Murray, I don’t know if it’s encouraging that the GM acquires a guy and doesn’t know where he fits into the plans for the team, but that’s a discussion for another team. In this instance, I actually applaud Murray for saying something generic. Maybe Cogs can move up and down the line up and fill some roles. He’s been a penalty killer and has, apparently, improved his defensive game while in Edmonton. Maybe Murray sees Cogliano as a Pahlsson replacement. Of course, he’ll have to improve his faceoff work before that can happen. Again, saying you don’t know where he’ll be is not the same as saying you expect him to be on the second line. I will make this argument: If the team isn’t sure where they will put him, we as the observers shouldn’t assume it will be in a role outside of the one he has traditionally played, or that does not meet the immediate needs of our squad.

Your deduction, based on the evidence provided, should be that the team will simply wait to see what it will do with Cogliano. I am arguing that the media has, to an extent, a knowledge of the team that I don’t, and therefore their analysis warrants more credibility. Murray is becoming known for saying very generic things, you know like “I have no idea where he’ll be playing” or “He’s very versatile”

I never said he was definitely going to play third line C either, just that it’s the most likely scenario.

by Daniel AC on Aug 26, 2011 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/41606-.html

Watch the video starting at around 1:50.

Doesn’t appear they know where he is playing yet. It depends on the different ‘scenarios’ it seems.

by Fish06 on Aug 29, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

*Secondary sources…

What is being said and not being said about Cogs by the organization is what leads me to believe he will see time across from Selanne. He is an upgrade over blake in nearly every way, most importantly, in terms of play making ability.

This depends on several things, of course:
1) is selanne playing
2) what kids make the team out of camp
3) has mcmillan had a productive offseason
4) other offseason additions

I think selanne will play, and I think Mcmillan will be our 3rd line center, which puts cogs on the second line.

by Fish06 on Aug 25, 2011 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some of McMillan’s best work came while he was playing on the wing, and that versatility makes him valuable. He’s better as a secondary face off option than a primary one. In fact, he even played well with Getzlaf and Perry.

by Daniel AC on Aug 25, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed. I really like the versatility we have up and down the lineup. Putting Mac with getz and pears really would be interesting. If that was the case, how would your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines look?

Mine would be as follows, C-W-W:

Getz- Pears- Mac
Cogs- Bobby- Teemu
Koivu- DSP- Maroon
Bonino-Parros/ Bell/Palmieri/Sexton/Belesky/Jaques

Thoughts?

by Fish06 on Aug 26, 2011 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

i don't see them separating Koivu and Selanne

I do like Bobby on the second line as that gives you two ridiculously good lines. Of course, this assumes that Blake is somehow gone, which I’m not certain will happen.

I think a Cogliano/DSP/Sexton third line could create a lot of havoc for teams. There’s a whole lot of speed on that line and two guys that have shown a willingness to hit (I’ll never forget Sexton upending Thornton).

by PhantomPretender on Aug 26, 2011 9:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t like Bobby on the Second line, and I definitely don’t like him centering it. The guy looked lost when he was playing in the middle. Bobby needs to be on the wing where he doesn’t have to be defensively responsible for anything.

Also, why would you take the best faceoff guy on the team and banish him to the wing? I don’t think Koivu has played the wing in his entire career. Koivu might be the best all around center we have on the team, making him play out of his position doesn’t make sense.

by Daniel AC on Aug 26, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh man, thank god. I was really worried for a second. Anyway, I agree with Robby that splitting up Koivu and Selanne won’t happen. Adding a guy to the wing is one thing, but asking him to take on a new center in the last year of his career just seems mean.

by Daniel AC on Aug 26, 2011 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a stretch, seperating Teemu and Koivu, but I think Teemu is happy as long as he’s scoring goals and I think Koivu is happy as long as he is helping the team.

If you put Koivu on the 3rd line with 2 solid checkers, like Maroon and DSP, you could have a very legit shutdown line who could also put the puck in the net.

I do like you’re lineup as well, Robby. The key there is putting Bobby on the second line. That automatically makes the rest of the lineup more dangerous. Really, we need a young guy to step up and round out the 1st line.

by Fish06 on Aug 27, 2011 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Koivu playing with two guys that have little to no NHL experience would be a “very legit shutdown line who could also put the puck in the net”?

Did those rejects at Oxford redefine the word “legitimate” and forget to tell me again?

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 27, 2011 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

“you could have a very legit…” You should read things completely.

For a guy who came crying to Daniels defense a few posts ago about not supplying any evidence to support opinions, you certainly do a shit ton of it.

Maybe its just that you really like Daniel? You two do have the student-teacher dynamic going, and maybe more?

Have you’re own opinion kiddo.

by Fish06 on Aug 27, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Crying? What is this word you speak of? Is that what this salty discharge running down my cheeks caused by your pathetic attempts to personally insult and attack me? Curse the day I was born!

In all seriousness, calm down. I wasn’t attacking you or your opinion. I was merely pointing out that I didn’t agree with your usage of the term “legitimate.” That’s all it was. A disagreement. As such, if this causes you discourse, then I’ll try my very best to begin agreeing with outlandish and unsupported claims. Although, I’m not holding my breath and don’t think you should either.

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 27, 2011 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I still don’t know what claims you are speaking of.

by Fish06 on Aug 29, 2011 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

The outlandish and unsupported claims, I mean.

by Fish06 on Aug 29, 2011 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Koivu playing with two guys that have little to no NHL experience could be a "very legit shutdown line who could also put the puck in the net"?

There, fixed. Just in response for your semantic argument.

Hope this makes you feel better, “kiddo!” :]

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 27, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you aware of the skill set these 2 players bring to the game? Are rookies not able to come in and contribute to the team? I mean LEGITIMATELY contribute?

Maroon has a few years as a pro under his belt and is primed to make a jump. He is a big checking forward who is defensively responsible and he also has a knack for scoring.

The numerous articles on DSP found on this blog can back up my argument that he could fill this role nicely. Just go back and look.

I’m not sure why you felt the need for sarcasm when you could have just argued why this line would have no chance at success. You’ve yet to make any arguments, just you’re little Archeresque remarks. Very original, btw.

by Fish06 on Aug 29, 2011 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll make it simple for you to understand

I don’t civilly debate with people that opt to personally attack me. I’ve got much better things to do with my time; like read a book. Crazy, I know.

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 29, 2011 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting. You demean me by hinting that I don’t know what ‘legitimate’ means (not to mention past attempts to do the same), then I retaliate, and now you take the high road?

Very noble of you, very noble. Enjoy your book.

by Fish06 on Aug 29, 2011 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nobility has nothing to do with it. It’s called being thrifty with the time I have. I suggest you do the same and no longer engage in conversations with me.

Thanks.

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 29, 2011 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

All, I’ll say is that, if Maroon is a legitimate professional, then so is Tangradi.

by Daniel AC on Aug 29, 2011 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have to apologize for my comment above, Nate. Sorry, that was over the top. Get a little carried away from time to time when talking about our team.

by Fish06 on Aug 30, 2011 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Completely understand. We’re all very passionate fans here. I’m glad our discourse didn’t last very long.

Now, let me get back to my book :p

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 30, 2011 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

As a precursor, id like to say that im currently studying in australia and am likely not up to date with every move that goes on in hockey.

I’ve been reading this blog for quite some time but never felt the inclination to contribute, however since ill be away for the coming season i thought it might be nice to talk to some people who watch the game on occasion. Furthermore, ive always found the views written on here….interesting and varied. HOWEVER, large components of the above ‘conversation’ and those on recent previous posts seem to have less to do with debating hockey and more a dick swinging competition. The quibbling over grammar and terminology seems a tad trifle, and not really the point of this blog (and to add my two cents, Maroon does have a career playing hockey with which he gets paid more than i likely ever will doing a 9-5 job….under any guise he can legitimately be considered a professional – do i believe he would be useful in the nhl this year on any line…no, but id be happy to be ‘proved’ wrong).

There also seems to be a big emphasis on ‘proving’ and backing up an opinion. While im all for an intelligent debate and to listen and learn what other people think, at the end of the day they are opinions. So far as i know, no one on here is on the day-to-day coaching staff, and thus we are all very likely wrong in our opinions (in the eyes of the organisation). sometimes, just sometimes maybe let some opinions go…for example, i have an irrational dislike for sexton i just plain dont see what he brings to the table, sure hes fast but what else? i do however think blake is underappreciated, were he getting paid half of what he is he would be a great 2nd/3rd liner, he works hard, hes quick…he just cant shoot anywhere but directly at the goalie.

Anyway, thats my rant. Id like to continue to read, and to contribute to this blog, and i believe that my long experience in elite sports may even contribute something useful…every once in a while… however if this blog is no longer about actual hockey and peoples actual opinions on hockey then ill go to some go to some other classy high brow intellectual blog instead…maybe puckdaddy (sarcasm) perhaps.

Either way let me know if you want me to stick around

by BennyLightning on Aug 29, 2011 11:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Stick around, I wouldn’t mind reading more of your opinions.

by DavidBL on Aug 30, 2011 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think everyone should stick around, but that’s me. I will say that I don’t think it’s outlandish to support an opinion with any evidence you can find; that’s just good argumentation. Of course, as someone who teaches communication on a regular basis, I have a different opinion of the term argument than most people.

As a co-founder, I will say that this blog was meant to create discourse and opinions of all varieties, as well as be a venue to demonstrate that Anaheim fans know more about hockey than their roster.

by Daniel AC on Aug 30, 2011 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said on all accounts. Looking forward to hearing from you more often.

by Fish06 on Aug 30, 2011 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

i have an irrational dislike for sexton

I’ve been seeing this more and more with some people I often talk hockey with and it really blows my mind.

I got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell

by Natesaduck on Aug 30, 2011 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not all that surprised. He really impressed when we first saw him but hasn’t done much since. It can be frustrating when you know the potential is there but its not really showing. Now I personally think that with the right opportunity he can be good but we shall see. He also may be a decent trade chip.

by DavidBL on Aug 30, 2011 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

We talk about Bobby Ryan getting bounced around the line up, but I don’t think anyone has gotten worse over the past season and a half than Dan Sexton. The kid is a clear scoring talent, as a top 9 winger, with clear PP upside. He’s the type of depth player who can provide your team a solid 40 points in the right situation, he just hasn’t been able to find it. He’s pretty much told to skate fast and create opportunities, but it’s not like he’s had very talented line mates to help him finish. The Chemistry he showed with McMillan was very promising, but then they were broken up. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

by Daniel AC on Aug 30, 2011 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed. It would be nice to see him find a spot and be able to stick with it. If Carlyle will let him…

by DavidBL on Aug 30, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here lies the problem for me. Assuming that the top two lines remain the same (until selanne actually retires or blake is traded i see no reason they would change), then his options remain as a 3rd liner.
Im quite happy to be proven wrong on any of the next points but:
I believe that mcmillian played better on a wing, and coach seemed happy enough to play him there. so that takes one spot.
the recruitment of cogliano may pose an issue aswell. i know he played pivot with the oilers, and noone has said he wont play there with the ducks, but some people (both here and on oilers sites – nothing i have read from any coaching staff on either team) have belief that he may be better suited to a wing. Couple this with my belief that Bonino is due for a long look, and his defensive play is quite tidy.
Purely conjecture, but i think there is a possibility that the the 3rd may be made up of those 3 players, which wouldnt leave a roster spot for sexton.

by BennyLightning on Aug 30, 2011 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

sorry for the jumble, that made a lot more sense in my head as i was writing it down…beauty of proof reading i guess.

by BennyLightning on Aug 30, 2011 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I see your point, and I agree that it’s a problem that the Ducks didn’t get a real third line center. Cogliano might be a good third line player for us, he’s speedy and has some scoring touch, but he doesn’t seem like a fit as pivot. I agree that McMillan looked better on the wing, I think we have a mess of a roster. I think Murray is asking Carlyle to just throw a bunch of pieces together until something sticks.

by Daniel AC on Aug 30, 2011 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Bonino is more likely to end up on the 4th line, but you’re right. With the current roster I don’t see Sexton really getting his chance this year. But Murray did sign him to a 2 year deal, this year is 2way while next is 1 way. I Still think Bonino could use another year in the AHL but be a top call up option for the C. But to do that Murray has to get a few centers. Maybe Gaustad and Wellwood? Slater and Wellwood? The centers are out there, Murray just has to go get them. I like Slater from Winnipeg. They require some LW depth and we have some. I also like Smithson from Nashville but I don’t know if they’ll part with him. Though Nashville could use a LW as well. But it’s just wishful thinking.

by DavidBL on Aug 30, 2011 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree, I don’t see sexton having a spot. He has shown flashes, but more often then not he is completely absent from games. There are simply too many other options.

Benny, It would be interesting to see a line of Bonino- Cogs- Mac. They each have 2-way games that would fit the mold of a 3rd line. I can’t say I would mind seeing what that would look like on the ice.

Daniel refers to this as a ‘mess’ (always glass half-full) of a lineup. I tend to see it a different way…. A lineup filled with young, skilled, versatile players who are competing for spots. I don’t see how this is a bad thing.

by Fish06 on Aug 31, 2011 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a bad thing when players don’t know what there role is. The best teams are always the ones where guys have clearly defined jobs and they can do them. Versatility is good, but it’s best if you can tell a versatile player how to use his versatility. Just because a guy is versatile, it doesn’t mean he does everything at the same level.

Based on your assessment of Sexton, I can only assume you haven’t been able to watch a lot of the games he’s played. The kid might not be on the score sheet a lot, but he’s always using his speed to back down defenders, batting for and winning pucks along the boards, and taking the body. He plays hard and when he gets linemates who can free up some space for him to shoot from better positions, we’ll see the results we’re hoping for. He’s a player who deserves a legitimate shot as a third line winger.

by Daniel AC on Aug 31, 2011 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have seen every game he has played as a duck and a few as a member of the crunch…. He’s not effective at all ‘battling for and winning pucks along the boards and taking the body’. This simply isn’t true. I like the guys effort but I remember him easily getting out battled for pucks and not really taking the body effectively. He is meant to be a skill player, and I just think we have players with more skill than him. I have a feeling he will not be on the roster, you think otherwise, we’ll just have to wait and see what happens… again…

In terms of the roster, I just flat out disagree. This is/was a TRANSITION team whether you admit it or not. A transition to youth occurred and now we have to see how these young guys mesh. Obviously when I say a player is versatile, he has some skills that are more pronounced than others. It’s meshing and puzzling together these skill sets that is important right now, not assigning roles for players. They will grow into those as the puzzle comes together.

by Fish06 on Aug 31, 2011 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I guess we are watching diffent games. I see Sexton take defenders into the boards and I see him work the boards and win pucks. I’m not saying he wins every battle, but he does battle effectively. To say he doesn’t is equally it true, and to say he’s absent is equally inaccurate.

I’m confused about what you disagree with me on. I said the best teams are the ones where guys know their roles. Are you saying that’s not the case? You have to be saying that, because that’s my argument. If you want to say the Ducks are transitioning and therefore not a great team, then we finally agree on something. This roster IS a mess. We have no idea what the bottom 6 is going to look like, except that it will probably somewhere feature McMillan and Beleskey, and maybe Cogliano. Right now, it looks like everyone in the bottom 6 will have to learn a new role for next year. Th only way that’s good fos us is if everyone figures it out by the playoffs.

by Daniel AC on Aug 31, 2011 1:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

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