Bob Murray & The Ghosts of Seasons Past
JEN:
By now, everyone is well aware that Bob Murray emerged from his Fortress of Solitude to finally comment on his plans for the Ducks. To me, his comments weren't all that surprising. I'm glad he's not focused on rebuilding and realizes that if he trades a "core player" he needs to get one in return. The only thing that really caught me off guard was saying that no one (save Teemu Selanne and Saku Koivu due to their 'no movement clause') was off the trading block. I would think that Corey Perry would be added to the list of people to keep their grubby mitts off of.
This got me thinking - is this Bob's desperate attempt to look like he knows what he's doing to save his job? Is he trying to calm the masses before they hit the panic button for him? Does he actually know what he's doing? I was taken back to a post Arthur wrote back almost a year ago about Murray's history and it is more relevant than ever. It leads me to believe that we are completely screwed, and I'm wondering if other Ducks fans feel the same. So, I decided to take the easy way out and re-run the post below.
Indicting a Ham Sandwich (originally run February 10, 2011)
ARTHUR:
In law school, I was exposed to various iterations of the aphorism that "a good prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich." Most often, I heard the phrase with the prosecutor removed i.e. "[Regarding grand juries], if you get the right 16 people together, you can indict a ham sandwich."
Blogospheres calling out General Managers are so often an example of this idea. When I express disappointment in Bob Murray, or even support of the rise of David McNab, it is so often based on quotes I did not gather, situations much deeper than what was reported and transactions whose negotiations are not always colored with the emotions of the fan base.
I am not an insider, so I understand how it is, at the very least, inappropriate for me to act as a person who culls information from published articles in the press to present a case for or against an individual. That is, at best, the rationalization of a torch-toting mob's demand for redress of grievances, and the raison d'être with which most mainstream news sources paint blogs, while hoping to discredit them.
There was no significant blogosphere the last time Bob Murray was a General Manager. But that mattered very little in the ultimate estimation of his failures; he was crucified by the mainstream media as effectively as any blogger could eviscerate him today.
I'm not a regular reader of the Chicago Tribune, nor was I twelve years ago, when Bob Murray regularly haunted its pages, but I have to wonder when it became okay for insiders to call him out. Was it the 15 trades in one season? Was it missing the playoffs again, with no signs of a return? Was it the trade of Chelios, where Murray was probably just a triggerman, but the defenseman found the situation with his General Manager rather personal? Was it the signing, waiving and buyout of Wendel Clark, where Murray called out the legend (and, by extension, the general manager's own mistake in signing Clark as a free agent) after only 13 games?
Before there were bloggers, it was, at some point, 'okay' to question the competence of a General Manager without evoking the 'insider versus outsider' debate. And you can argue that the press themselves are outsiders, but on page 2 of that above-linked Tribune article, a definitive insider in Murray's situation, Bob Pulford, made sure to distance himself from Murray's actions.
Ten years later, most would hope-- you figure Murray, at the very least, hoped --that memories would fade. But memories can be refreshed.
During his press interviews after signing with the Maple Leafs, François Beauchemin was very vocal about waiting by a phone that never rang and how returning to the Ducks was his preferred option. Posturing, you could argue, as many did about an emotional Chelios. That notwithstanding, Murray admitted it. He reasoned that he didn't want to insult Beauchemin, a player the General Manager had fought to get while playing wingman to Brian Burke, and that the blueliner was operating in a price range outside of the Ducks' wheelhouse. So . . . no offer was made.
The desire to stay is as crippling a weakness as one can find in a free agency negotiation, and Beauchemin claims he had it. An insulting offer, had it been made, might have opened negotiations. But even if a 3.8M average was absolutely necessary to make him stay, you have to ask yourself what that money was saved to achieve. For all the Salary cap problems, Bob Murray did ultimately spend money on his blueline. What did he get?
Some combination of James Wisniewski and Steve Eminger or Nick Boynton-- the host of nickel and dime defensive question marks that came in to play Randy Carlyle's system and have since exited with little fanfare, most of them losing their jobs to Sheldon Brookbank?
He traded a player of certainty for two or more players of uncertainty. Then he had to trade (literally) to get him back.
Beauchemin doesn't seem to bear a grudge over the situation, showing understanding and implying all's forgiven. So maybe bygones should be bygones, and I should let this ham sandwich go on its way. The mistake was corrected after all, just like Whitney being traded for Visnovsky (if you conveniently forget that Eric Tangradi is good at hockey and that there was a period of time when the team actually had to rely on Ryan Whitney).
I guess I have a problem with stamping "WOOPS" on an entire season, or every game between the preseason and trading deadline. And I guess that's the same problem they had in Chicago. Too many deals, too many attempts to overhaul the team every year, only to get it right, if at all, when it was too late.
Maybe Murray's lucky this time out. No one's seemed to notice so far. A budget team in a small market offers too many excuses and not enough microscopes to produce well-publicized mistakes or beat writers terribly interested in eviscerating the General Manager of a hockey team. And if a blogger does it, well, he's a blogger. He, and anyone who joins 'Spartacus,' will probably be indicting a ham sandwich next week, so who cares what they have to say?
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or maybe murray just wants to see what he could get for some of our core players, like he did with Ryan.
I don’t think that he will start a firesale with our core players, so if he is able to trade visnovsky, blake, hopefully koivu then i’m okay with it.
and if he gets that demanded top 4 defender+ top prospect + 2012 first round pick for bobby ryan, then i’m ok with it
Well the whole point of this article was he can’t move Koivu or Lubo, at least not without their permission.
And nobody wants 4 million worth of Jason Blake either. He adds nothing to a contender for that price.
by bhlloy on Jan 5, 2012 8:23 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
The demand for Bobby, as I remember from the comment thread, was top 6 forward, top 4 defender, prospect and a first rounder.
That’s not what THIS article is about though. It’s about how people ignore all of Murray’s mistakes out here. It could be that we don’t know as much about hockey, or it could be that people are simply unwilling to supply the pressure. Although, I suppose I’ve been advocating Murray’s dismissal as long as anyone.
I meant the article Jen linked to, not the actual blog post sorry.
Don’t disagree with you on that either though
by bhlloy on Jan 5, 2012 8:35 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
He told them, too. Helene wasn’t at the game so she got her article out first.
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Managing Editor - Anaheim Calling
What about Getzy to Detroit?
We could see if the Wings would bite on a trade consisting of Getz for Filppula straight up, or maybe Filppula and a pick?
FYI
Andrew Gordon and Matt Smaby have been placed on waivers.
Well
It’s Ducks news, so I reported it. Don’t kill the messenger!
That being said, I was hoping that Gordon would find his footing under Boudreau’s tutelage. He was a fan favorite in Washington/Hershey.
by light_the_lamp on Jan 5, 2012 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Damn I liked Gordon. I thought he gave 110% every game.
by Hockey Phreak on Jan 5, 2012 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yah, still like the kid. Hard working, and a good personality.
by Hockey Phreak on Jan 5, 2012 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
He had a HORRIBLE game last night. It was painful. I really like the kid too, but last night was just bad.
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Managing Editor - Anaheim Calling
Also, the Finns are finally together, as per Eric stephens’ twitter
I don’t see why our GM is in panic mode. Obviously I would prefer the team to rattle off many victories because honestly, I think finishing in the lottery is very embarrassing. I don’t care if it’s better for the organization. You finished in the bottom 3, your bad. Embarrassing. However, I don’t really see the need to panic. If nothing is going right, fine. You will end up with a top pick even if you try to get out of the hole.
What is wrong with a forward lineup of:
RPG
Yakupov – Koivu – Selanne
Hagman – Cogliano – Blake/FA
or
RPG
Cogliano – Grigorenko – Selanne
Hagman – Koivu – Blake
I understand that Selanne and Koivu may or may not be back, but I do have a feeling that they both do not want to go out on a terrible season like this. They both can still play and might just be back.
Obviously, our D is very lacking. I have no problem with moving Lydman and Visnovsky. We can get one decent roster defender back at least and most importantly have more salary room. We need to address the D at the draft or free agency, but I see no reason to make a big move in shaking up RPG. Cogliano is the weak link in the forward lineups above, but we are stuck with him for better or worse. Also, I think resigning Blake and Hagman, both should come cheaply, would be good for a third line. Both work hard, forecheck, and can score occasionally. Keeping our forward prospects down in the AHL will not hurt them, they all need to dominate at the AHL level instead of coming up and scoring 1 goal in 12 games. In good news, Bonino also looks solid this year.
DSP and Etem are NHL ready. If Koivu and Selanne come back, I think they should be the core of the third line and we should try to get our younger guys playing NHL minutes.
Palmieri is also ready, he cant do much more in the A. He needs minutes, and is worth a long look. Possibly now, if Murray can deal out and create some roster space.
Contradictory, but im glad some else thinks we should resign Blake. Was beginning to think id gone crazy…although thats still a possibility.
by BennyLightning on Jan 5, 2012 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that Palmieri can’t do much more in the AHL, but he also hasn’t shown much in the NHL. Bonino at least showed flashes, but he was always to slow. Now he looks better. Palmieri never showed much except on a few occasions he had a solid shot. I think the Ducks should keep him down for another year and give him concrete things to work on. He always deferred to others when he was up and never showed much initiative himself. He always just tried to give up the puck to his line mates. Another year older and another year demolishing others will only give him for confidence which should translate. Bonino and Palmieri are different players and I know the comparision has flaws, but I do feel that there is merit. Either way, Palmieri is still very young and he does not need to be in the NHL yet.
Did we really put Palmieri in a position to succeed up here? Sure he got top line duties, but as is hte want of every younger player you do defer to the senior guys, especially if said player is the captain of the club. He needs to be given time to grow into a role, and being that this season is over, maybe this is the right time to do it.
that being said, i dont see him as a top line player in the NHL, but i do see him as a very effective 3rd line gun.
Like fowler, i just dont see the merit in playing them in the AHL any longer, what they need to learn they can at the top level…the franchise just needs to do it smarter. Nurtured in a supporting role rather than forced into a front line role.
by BennyLightning on Jan 5, 2012 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Your absolutely right, I forgot about DSP for a second there. He fits on the third instead of Blake most probably. I am not as convinced as you are with Etem. I think he could use a year or half a year in the AHL getting top line minutes instead of being on the third here. Same with Holland and Palmieri. Another year dominating and winning would be very good for them then the next year they can come in as second or third liners for us.
My big question is if they can Murray who takes over? I know McNab is an EXCELLENT drafter, but does that mean he’d be a good GM with a plan like Burke was and even Bryan Murray was better than Bob Murray!
Bryan Murray was pretty good. He’s had a tough go in Ottawa, but I wouldn’t mind him. McNab has been around a while. I have confidence in him adjusting. He’s earned a chance to do this. I’m overly sentimental, but I’ve always believed that being loyal has its rewards. The Ducks should be loyal to McNab and give him his shot.
I know i asked you this on another post. But is it possible that he’s happy in his current role, and/or thats the role hes best suited for? I know you mentioned he was great at scouting, and analysis. but maybe that his best role?
by BennyLightning on Jan 5, 2012 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
Anyone else available out there? It would be kinda cool to get Bryan Murray back so he can GM over Getz and Pears. I’m just not sure about McNab. You woulda thought Burke would have tagged him when he left if he thought Bruce had the goods to be a GM. But i get the loyalty thing.
What would be interesting to me is if McNab was interim and we brought in Selanne in the offseason as GM! Although I’d rather have him playing I’m guessing this season has put a bad taste in his mouth…then we could have a true Tampa Bay type resurgence (more last year than this year).
First step needs to be Henry Samueli stepping in and stopping this nonsense. It’s one thing for a GM to surround a good core with bad players, but it’s as equally as bad to surround core players with nothing really at all.
Fire Bob Murray, make McNab the acting GM and then if McNab doesn’t feel ready to take the role on full-time, then sign Nonis or Dudley from the Leafs.
Seriously. This has to stop somewhere.
But in all honesty, if I had to trade players I would make three deals:
Getzlaf+ to Nashville for Suter.
Ryan to Buffalo for McNabb/Psysk, Kassian/Ennis, Adam.
Hiller to Tampa Bay for Steve Yzerman.
Yup. I would only make the move for Suter if it’s a S&T. And although Weber is the sexy choice with his big hits and big shot, Suter is the guy who could come in here and anchor a pair by himself. One thing I remember when Nieds was playing, was that he would do those little things like playing defensively responsible and defensively sound. I think that’s more of what we need in a top-flight d-man.
Personally, I vote for nastiness over defensively sound. You can develop defensively sound players or sign them cheaply. Nastiness, now thats a unique trait.
Disagree.
We don’t need nastiness on this team. Nastiness is something that can put a soft-team over the edge. Defensively sound is what takes a bad team out of the gutter.
Not only that, Suter can effectively play all teams (PP, PK, OT, ES) without looking out of position or flat out bad, no matter who his partner is. He’s essentially a Lidstrom clone, and he’s the exact guy that will make our defense good. I like Weber and everything about him, but Suter is the better fit to me (especially with our dismal situation on D).
I think that’s why Weber is the best fit. He’s the one the Preds will probably part with. Suter is solid, but I think that Weber is a game changer, nastiness aside. Weber is the next coming of Pronger, except with a better reputation. He can also anchor a pairing on his own, and if you put him with different guys in the 4 on 4 he can still be extremely effective. Weber is the right choice. Suter might be better overall, but I think Weber is the best fit here. We desperately need that size and grit on the back end. If we could switch Lubo for Weber and Lydman for someone like O’Brien, we’d have a very serviceable D.
Pulling 2 conversations together…
Assuming the asking price for weber or suter was getzlaf (and assuming sign and trade) is that a deal we make?
by BennyLightning on Jan 5, 2012 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
no we wouldn’t make that deal
we have 3 scoring winger with selanne, we have 2 without them, we have plenty of scoringwinger in the farm, 2 or 3 of them who be ready next year, but we have no one even close to a #1 Center besides Getzlaf. Hell we don’t even have a #2 center.
so if we have to part with one of the top 3, it would be bobby ryan.
visnovsky for weber would be cool, but no freakin way nashville bites on that offer.
I think I read onhockeybuzz that Weber is more likely to be traded than Surer and only if Nash isn’t in playoff contention.
by DavidBL on Jan 5, 2012 4:00 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
so last year the ducks were with pretty the same team (besides the blueline, which was worse) 4th in the league.
so after Murray had to retool this team for 3-4 years now, he saw a fragile team (like the last 2 seasons) and he tried to bring youth in it to develop a contender for the 2012/2013 or 2013/2014 season (on the fly retooling).
so now that this team slumps big time, with nearly the same personal like last years 4th place, it’s time for murray to go?!? and it’s nonesense?
i see murray made faults, but i don’t think all that hate (especially Daniels hate :D ) is justified.
This season is over, not because our GM sucks big time, but because we are a weak team in our stepping back years after the cup. look at carolina and tampa (other small market teams) after their cup. i think the Ducks did fairly well in comparison.
and i say it time and time again, this deadline is make or break for murray, like the next offseason after the CBA.
this is the FIRST TIME he has all those bad contracts off the books (contracts he didn’t handed out, but he still had to deal with since the burke area).
And for all those calling for heads of the GM, the top 3, our goalie, our prospects etc i write it a final time in caps
THIS IS NOT THE DUCKS YEAR TO COMPETE FOR THE SC.
this is the last season of our rebuilt, next season we should be able to be active on the FA market and finally have some cheap homegrown talent NHL ready (and hopefully the Samuellis are aware of that and start spending again, if not we are fucked)
Murray inherited a Stanley Cup core and his only job was to put the supportive pieces around it. He had 3+ seasons and couldn’t do it. He actually made the team worse.
The only bad contracts on that team were Bertuzzi and Schneider and I think Byrke handled those. there was a cap problem, but there weren’t unmovable contracts. It’s not like he signed Brian Campbell.
You’re right; it’s not our year to compete for the Cup, because our GM doesn’t know how to build a winner. All he can do is lean on his scouting staff and play it safe on the trade market. This guy will NEVER turn this team into a Cup winner.
by Daniel AC on Jan 6, 2012 8:19 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Stars fan observing from afar
And this looks exactly like a desperate GM who built a bad team and is trying to look like he knows what he’s doing when he’s demonstrated that he doesn’t. You all have my deepest sympathies.
thats just not fair. I may actually cry
Daniel… please not one “i told you so”
by BennyLightning on Jan 6, 2012 3:51 AM PST up reply actions
A stars fan would know. Wasn’t it rough before Joe took over?
by Daniel AC on Jan 6, 2012 8:22 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Hmm. Maybe Scotty needs to start working in the front office a little more…
"I'm not a lady. I'm a DUCK!" - Connie Moreau, D2: Mighty Ducks
Managing Editor - Anaheim Calling

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